Episode 10

Psilocybin for Women with Jennifer Chesak

Joining me today is Jennifer Chesak, the author of The Psilocybin Handbook for Women.

Jennifer is an award-winning freelance science and medical journalist, editor, and fact-checker, and her work has appeared in several national publications, including the Washington Post. Chesak earned her master of science in journalism from Northwestern University’s Medill School of Journalism. She currently teaches in the journalism and publishing programs at Belmont University, leads various workshops at the literary nonprofit The Porch, and serves as the managing editor for the literary magazine SHIFT.

Today we’re talking about the use of psilocybin, a psychedelic plant medicine, and its potential benefits. 

While psilocybin has potential benefits for everyone, today we’re diving into the specific ways in which it may be helpful for women including regulating our stress and trauma response, helping with depression and anxiety, facilitating healing and behavior change, and promoting hormone health in every stage of life.

Psychedelics and psychedelic assisted therapy are somewhat controversial, but they’re a subject that I’ve been curious about and wanting to cover for a long time, and I couldn’t ask for a better expert to talk with about it.

Jen dispels some of the common myths and fears around psilocybin and educates us on how it can be used safely and effectively.

Please be aware that psilocybin is a schedule one drug and is still federally illegal. However, it has been legalized on a state level in CO and OR, and is currently in the works in other states. It is illegal but decriminalized in Washington DC and Ann Arbor, MI.

If you decide to pursue psychedelic assisted therapy, it is imperative that you do thorough research on who you work with beforehand. I’ve included several resources below and Jennifer also includes detailed information on safety in the book.

The Psilocybin Handbook for Women 

http://www.jenniferchesak.com

On LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jenniferchesak/

On Instagram, Threads, TikTok, X (Twitter) and Facebook: @jenchesak

https://www.instagram.com/jenchesak/

https://twitter.com/jenchesak

https://www.threads.com/jenchesak

https://www.tiktok.com/jenchesak

https://www.facebook.com/jenchesak


Resources:

APPA (American Psychedelic Practitioners Association) - The APPA provides accreditation after practitioners have gone through a comprehensive training. 

Moms on Mushrooms

The Flourish Academy

April Pride 

Cover Story: Power Trip podcast

DanceSafe.org 

MAPS (Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Therapies) 

Johns Hopkins Medicine Psychedelics Research and Psilocybin Therapy


Interested in working with Jeannie? Schedule a 30-minute Coffee Talk here.

Connect with me on Instagram @joliverwellness and check out the options for my more affordable self-study programs here: https://www.joliverwellness.com/diy-programs

Music credit: Funk’d Up by Reaktor Productions

A Podcast Launch Bestie production

Transcript
Speaker:

Hey there.

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Welcome to the nutrition edit podcast.

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I'm your host, Jeannie Oliver.

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And joining me today is Jennifer

Chesick, the author of the

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psilocybin handbook for women.

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Jennifer is an award winning

freelance scientist and medical

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journalist, editor and fact checker.

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And her work has appeared in

several national publications,

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including the Washington post.

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Chesick earned her Master of Science in

Journalism from Northwest University's

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Medill School of Journalism.

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She currently teaches in the Journalism

and Publishing programs at Belmont

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University, leads various workshops

at the literary non profit The Porch,

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and serves as the managing editor

for the literary magazine Shift.

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I'll add links for all the places that you

can find her in the show notes, but you

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can check out her work at jenniferchesick.

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com or follow her on

socials at Jen Chesick.

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It's spelled J E N C H E S A K.

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Today, we're talking about the use of

psilocybin, which is a psychedelic plant

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medicine and its potential benefits.

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And while psilocybin has potential

benefits for everybody, both men and

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women alike, today we're going to dive

into the specific ways in which it

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can be helpful for us women, including

regulating our stress and trauma

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response, helping with depression

and anxiety, facilitating healing and

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behavior change, and promoting hormone

health in every stage of our lives.

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Psychedelics and psychedelic assisted

therapy are still somewhat controversial,

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but they're a subject that I have been

really curious about and wanting to cover

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for a long time, and I couldn't ask for

a better expert to talk about it with.

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Jen's going to dispel some of

the common myths and fears around

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psilocybin, also known as magic

mushrooms, and she educates us on how

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it can be used safely and effectively.

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I learned a ton in this

episode, and I hope that you'll

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enjoy it as much as I did.

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So now let's jump into my

interview with Jen Chesick.

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. jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

WElcome Jennifer Chesick.

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I'm so excited to have you here.

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Thanks for joining me today.

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

you for having me.

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I'm pleased to be here.

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

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So I'm really excited about your

book and just to dive into this.

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This is such a hot topic right now and

it's something I've been wanting to

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talk with an expert about for a long

time and really take a deep dive into.

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So thank you for joining us.

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I'm really, really looking

forward to this talk.

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Thank you.

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You've come to the right person.

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Absolutely.

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So tell us a little about

yourself and your background.

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Tell us about the book and

why you decided to write it.

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Sure.

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Yeah.

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So I am a science and medical journalist.

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I'm also a fact checker and I'm

an adjunct instructor in the

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journalism and publishing program.

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So I'm just constantly always writing

and dappling in the written word, but

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I really focused on health and science

and wellness and things like that.

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And I have a really strong passion for

women's health, especially because I've

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had a lot of health problems in my life.

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And I've found that oftentimes when you,

when women enter the mainstream medical

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system, they get really frustrated.

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And I'll talk a little bit about

that as we move through the podcast.

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But in terms of The actual book.

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So I've always really been

fascinated by psychedelics as well.

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And then it seemed like a great

opportunity to merge the two

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women's health and psychedelics.

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And one of the reasons that this is so

important to have a book just dedicated

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to the female body is that so, more

women in some cases are actually

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using psychedelics more frequently

than men at some psychedelics.

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And this is, you know, a blanket.

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statement pulled from a a survey,

the global drug survey of:

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I, that came as a surprise to me.

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I was a little surprised that more

women are using some psychedelics

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more frequently than men.

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But when I dug a little deeper,

this didn't surprise me.

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And this really like drove home

the need for this book, but.

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What, what didn't surprise me is that

there's a difference between the way

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men and women tend to use psychedelics.

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So, men tend to use psychedelics a little

bit more recreationally, whereas women

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are turning to psychedelics to self treat.

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And again, this is an overgeneralization,

and not all men are using

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psychedelics just recreationally,

and there's nothing wrong with

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using psychedelics recreationally.

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They're fun!

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But women are turning to psychedelics

to self treat for conditions

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like PTSD, trauma, anxiety.

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Depression, chronic pain issues,

other chronic health conditions.

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And these are the very same

conditions that disproportionately

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affect the female body.

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And also when women go to the

doctor's office, they're gas lit

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for some of these very conditions.

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So endometriosis is a classic example.

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It's a condition that I have.

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And I write about that in

the book, but so it's been a

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problem, a longstanding problem.

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And, but psychedelics, they're looking

for alternative treatments so that.

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They can find relief for

some of these issues.

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And that's why it's really important for

them to have accurate information, safety

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information, any information that is very

specific to the female body, which I think

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we're going to talk about hormones later

and the menstrual cycle and all of that.

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And so wanting to dive into that.

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But one of the things I like to

share with people when I first.

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start talking about how women are

treated in the medical system.

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I like to throw out this timeline.

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So women were largely excluded

from early stage clinical trials

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until about the 1990s, early 1990s.

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And that has had some major ramifications.

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A lot of people don't realize

this, but I give this timeline and

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it kind of gets people fired up.

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Um, so in 1998, men got a drug

for male sexual dysfunction and

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everyone knows what that drug is.

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It's Viagra, right?

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You know, household name, right?

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And at that point in time, the medical

community, let alone anybody that

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a woman might have been sleeping

with, didn't have an accurate

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picture of what the clitoris is.

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So there's all this internal structure to

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Do they now?

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Right.

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

people, the medical community

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at least is starting to get the

picture, but maybe not everyone.

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But that didn't happen until 2005 when

a female urologist dug into the research

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on this and then determined all of

this internal structure to clitoris.

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And that's crazy, that was 2005.

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And

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

That is

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

I know!

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Blows my mind too.

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And then get this, it wasn't

until:

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for female sexual dysfunction.

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That's a 17 year gap from when

dudes got a drug to when women

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got a drug for the same condition.

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Even though, like, sexual dysfunction

affects The male and the female body

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differently, clearly, but because

of different anatomy, but it's

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still a condition and it's the same

condition in the broad scope of it.

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And that's a 17 year gap.

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So the medical community has largely

been treating the female body and the

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male body as the same in research.

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I mean, this is starting to change.

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now, but it's still, it's still

an issue that women's health is

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often put on the back burner.

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And so that is why I feel like it's

so important that if women are turning

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to psychedelics to self treat, which

there's nothing wrong with that

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as long as they're doing it safely

then, they need accurate information.

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So that's what this book is

really all about and all the

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contexts that might apply.

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Awesome.

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Yeah.

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And it's called the

psilocybin handbook for women.

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Sorry.

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I forgot to mention that.

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Well, I'll definitely put that in

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the intro for sure, but I just think

it's, I think it's so brilliant.

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I think it's so exciting.

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Thank you for writing this because, I've

been really interested in brain health

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and metabolism and the work that I do

and things like dementia and Alzheimer's.

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I mean, Alzheimer's, it affects

twice as many Women, as men, we

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now know that our brains function

very differently than men's brains.

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That medications and all these

things affect us so differently

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than they do men's brains.

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And so, yet another reason why

we should take a very specific

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gender focused look at this.

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Mm hmm.

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

In that context, because

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it isn't the same.

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We aren't just little men.

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I heard a doctor, um, no,

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

not little men.

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Dr.

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Lisa Moscone refers to

it as bikini medicine.

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yes,

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

You know, that anything that the bikini

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could cover that that was considered

what differentiated men from women

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and anything beyond that was like,

well, it must just be the same thing.

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

right and that term I use in the book to

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point out that when the medical community

does focus on women's health, like when

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they actually are researching it, they

are focusing just on like the bikini

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aspect, and it's usually related to

reproduction, and like women were not just

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put on this earth to reproduce, you know,

so that's a big frustration on my end.

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

wild.

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So give us a little bit of

the history of psilocybin.

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And I know that this, could be a podcast

in its own, but just a little brief

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overview of kind of the history of it.

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, we know that psychedelics have been used

by indigenous populations for centuries.

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So give us a little nutshell version of

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

of course.

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Yeah.

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So I actually don't know how long it's

been used in indigenous communities.

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I think we're still actually

learning that and digging into that.

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But yeah, psilocybin has a

storied history of being used in

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indigenous communities, indigenous

ceremonies for different purposes.

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And this is so important in the context

of what we're doing with psilocybin

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now, because you know, everyone's

focusing on the newer research on

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psilocybin, but we need to, whenever

we are talking about psilocybin, we

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need to be bringing in indigenous

wisdom because of that long history.

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We think of science as this

process of doing things over and

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over again to reproduce the same

results, but that's exactly what

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indigenous communities have done.

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I mean, yes, it's not in clinical trials

and indigenous communities, but it's.

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still, it's still using a very

scientific process in some regard.

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And so I did interview,

um, this wonderful woman.

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Her name is Michaela de la Mico.

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She goes by mama de la Mico on Instagram,

and she has studied psilocybin in

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the context of, of, um, indigenous

practices, and she's indigenous herself.

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And so she uses those practices

to help women with various things.

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So I pulled her in as an interview

because I don't have that background.

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And I just felt it was really important

to get the right expert for that.

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But in terms of I think it's also

important to understand like how In

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the US, like the mainstream medical

community even got to know psilocybin.

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And so that started when, so originally

this guy named Robert Gordon Wasson,

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he's a JPMorgan and Chase executive.

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This was back in the 1950s.

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He went down to Mexico at some point

and met a woman named Maria Sabina.

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Maria Sabina is an indigenous healer,

or curandero is the appropriate term.

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I don't know if.

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Healer maps is quite up with

that, but I'll go with it for now.

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Anyway so she was, she was,

using psilocybin in ceremonial

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practices and he met up with her.

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And back then, the white

man was not allowed to

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participate in these ceremonies.

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So he lied to her and he said,

I need to do this so I can go

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and find my son who was missing.

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And that was not true at all.

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Her, his son was not missing.

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And but he lied to her, and she finally

let him join a ceremony with the condition

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that he not go and tell anyone where

she lived or who she was by not mention

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her name when he went back to the U.

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S.

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Well, of course, he totally violated

that agreement and came back to the U.

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S.

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and wrote a big article in Life

magazine naming her village.

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naming her.

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So this was a total violation of

that trust that they had built.

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And then all of these people

started flocking to her village.

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So like Walt Disney went there, John

Lennon, a lot of other celebrities.

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And then, of course, just general, the

general population sort of flocking there.

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And, brought a lot of tourist

issues to that community.

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And the community was not liking this

because they were overrun with tourists.

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And, not a great way.

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And so, she ended up being

ostracized from her village.

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Uh, her house was burned down.

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I believe her son was murdered.

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I don't know the details of the

murder or anything like that.

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But but really it's not a great story.

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It's a really, really sad story.

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Uh, and she eventually You know,

passed away, but she lived in

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poverty for the rest of her life

because of this man, what he did.

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And it's really harmful

when we think about that.

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So at that time, then you know,

psychedelics were starting to

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be studied back then for mental

health issues and other contexts.

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But then we had the war on drugs,

and that halted a bunch of research,

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and now we're getting back to it.

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But it's so important to just remember

that origin story because again, it's

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like a violation of women for sure,

and then also Indigenous communities,

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and so it's so important that when we

talk about psilocybin, that we bring

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that Indigenous, uh, culture into it.

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, I agree.

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And kudos to you for having,

for prioritizing that and

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having the awareness to do that.

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Because I think that hopefully by

using this now, the knowledge in a

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way that does honor women and help

people, it honors the memory of.

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Her and these pioneers and people who

were, using it first, who got there first.

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I think we're so arrogant in the West.

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We love to think that

we're the ones that are

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah,

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

all these things, right?

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Discovering things.

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It was like, no dude,

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

No, dude.

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Yes.

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

no dude.

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Yeah.

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So, well, okay.

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Yeah.

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That's fascinating.

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And I think too, that there was

that negative sort of stigma or just

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perception of psychedelics as like,

You know, hippies doing LSD and just

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tripping and for recreation only,

and again, not that there's anything

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necessarily wrong with that, but I

think that the war on drugs, that whole

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idea around that really stigmatized it.

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And I think it created a lot of fear.

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

It did create a lot of fear.

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And there was a lot of

misinformation put out there.

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There was this concept.

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It was really around, a lot of it was

around MDMA or, you know, what we have

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called ecstasy and Molly over the years.

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But there was this idea that

like, everyone was doing Molly.

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We were all gonna go crazy and insane.

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The world was gonna, Essentially blow up

because people are Molly all the time.

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And this just really wasn't happening.

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It was a moral panic, essentially akin

like the satanic panic of the:

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where everyone thought there were all

these dead devil worshipper worshippers

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everywhere and that just wasn't true.

294

:

But then there are all

295

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

tapes backwards and

296

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

exactly.

297

:

There are all of these other

298

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

remember it.

299

:

Well,

300

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

exactly.

301

:

Same.

302

:

There's all this other misinformation

out there too, like you're going to

303

:

lose your mind if you do psychedelics,

you're going to jump out a window

304

:

and, uh, none of this is true.

305

:

That's just not how it works, and a

lot of it is perpetuated by film and

306

:

television that inappropriately portrays

what doing a psychedelic is like.

307

:

People see people having bad trips in

film, and movies, and they're like,

308

:

oh gosh, I don't want to be like

that, or that someone's just going

309

:

to go crazy for doing this, and it's

just, that's just not the real case,

310

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

sure.

311

:

So when it comes down to that, I

mean, I know that people do sometimes

312

:

have bad trips, um, but what is

the difference between, like, the

313

:

reality that you're talking about

and this sort of Hollywood version

314

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Right.

315

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

worst case scenario?

316

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

317

:

So people do have bad trips and actually

I think the psychedelic community is

318

:

trying to change the language around

that rather than saying a bad trip.

319

:

We want to say a challenging trip

and that can happen where and it

320

:

might not be the whole journey.

321

:

Like you might have the, it starts

out great and then suddenly you

322

:

get some anxiety or fear that

crops up and you're having too

323

:

many visuals and it's overwhelming.

324

:

But there are ways to be

protective against it.

325

:

And and then the other thing I want

to, and I'll share some of those ways,

326

:

but one thing I want to share too is

that it, you know, usually that if

327

:

you do have a slightly bad experience,

it's just like a temporary thing.

328

:

It's it's just a section of your

journey or your trip that might

329

:

be a little bit like, oh, gosh,

I don't want to do this anymore.

330

:

And I had an experience.

331

:

But it was okay in the long run.

332

:

And most people report, even if they

have a challenging experience, this comes

333

:

from survey results and, medical studies

that are in peer reviewed journals, they

334

:

report that it's still one of the most

profound experiences of their lives.

335

:

And I can totally relate to that

because, my journey was in my trip

336

:

experience was really good for the

most part, but I did have like a 10

337

:

minute time span in there where I was

like, I want to unsubscribe from this

338

:

experience and I don't want to be

339

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

340

:

I want out.

341

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

you're like stuck on the carnival

342

:

ride and but it was a good thing.

343

:

My mind was just showing me what I needed

to know at that moment, cause that's

344

:

how psychedelics work on the brain.

345

:

I know we're going to get into that, but

it was showing me what I needed to know.

346

:

And on the other side of that 10 minute

time span was immense peace and relief.

347

:

And I mean, the most Peace and

euphoria I've ever felt in my life

348

:

was at that other side of that.

349

:

And so I do call it one of the most

profound experiences of my life.

350

:

Now that's not to say that people

don't have really horrible trips

351

:

and they can go really bad.

352

:

Um, but generally you can do a

lot of things to set yourself

353

:

up for a good experience.

354

:

And the context of that in

the psychedelic community, we

355

:

use the terms set and setting.

356

:

So set is your mindset going

into a psychedelic journey.

357

:

And what I mean by that is like, are

you super stressed out or are you

358

:

feeling like, okay, I can do this.

359

:

Do you have you set aside enough

time or do you have like some crazy

360

:

deadline coming up that is the next day?

361

:

And you're worried about that.

362

:

And you've got so many things going

on in your life that you can't really

363

:

take time to actually Do a journey

that's going to set you up, set yourself

364

:

up for a very stressful experience.

365

:

Yeah.

366

:

And then the set, the setting is literally

like what's around your environment,

367

:

what's around you, who's around you.

368

:

And so some of that can be controlled

by you know, finding a safe space or a

369

:

really calming space because some people

react too much to external stimuli.

370

:

So like for me, I would not want

to be on shrooms at a festival.

371

:

Other people are great doing that, but

I know that personally, that's not going

372

:

to set myself up for a good experience.

373

:

I need to be in a calm contained

space for the most part.

374

:

So yeah, there are things like with set

and setting practices that can really set

375

:

you up for the best experience possible.

376

:

And then the other thing

in terms of mindset.

377

:

Instead of setting like this intention

of like, I need to work on this very

378

:

specific thing, uh, which you can do.

379

:

But a lot of people recommend

setting an intention to just

380

:

being open to the experience and

to try to avoid the resistance.

381

:

Cause we do have a tendency to resist

things and that we can't control.

382

:

And there will be elements of your

journey that you can't control.

383

:

And so you have to be just

open to that experience.

384

:

And the more open that you are and the

less resistance that you put up, the

385

:

better your journey will likely be.

386

:

It's just some mini tips, but

there's more on that in the book.

387

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, that's, that I think is the

388

:

part that's the most intimidating

for me is, , the, just the loss of

389

:

control or the lack of control that

you would have going through it.

390

:

Uh, which brings me to my next question.

391

:

The difference between micro dosing

And macro dosing, because for that

392

:

very reason, I'm someone that I'm

very open to the idea of micro

393

:

dosing because it's not this, you

know, big thing that's happening.

394

:

or This kind of concentrated

experience, if you will.

395

:

So tell me the difference between

micro dosing and macro dosing and how

396

:

people can kind of maybe determine

which route is best for them.

397

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, I think a combination of the

398

:

two are great, but macro dosing is

so micro and macro, if you just nail

399

:

down those terms, micro means like

a very mini, tiny dose and macro

400

:

means you're taking a larger dose.

401

:

So I do list all the different doses in

my book, but I also want to mention that

402

:

there's something called a heroic dose.

403

:

So I'll start with that

because that's the biggest.

404

:

So that's going to be

something like over five grams.

405

:

You're going to be.

406

:

extremely tripping.

407

:

It's not recommended to do

that for your first experience.

408

:

So let's just set that aside for now.

409

:

We're not going to, we're not going

to do a heroic dose right this minute.

410

:

Um, and I

411

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

you!

412

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

that as someone's first choice.

413

:

Um, then like what we think of like

a classic macro dose is going to

414

:

be, so heroic dose is five grams.

415

:

And that classic macro dose will

be somewhere between like two, 3.

416

:

5, even up to three grams.

417

:

four grams, let's just say between

two and four grams is a macro dose.

418

:

And that is when you are going to have

some of these classic experiences while

419

:

tripping, like where you're going to

see some visuals, some different things

420

:

are going to be happening in your brain.

421

:

And we can talk about that, but you

need, you roughly need about let's just

422

:

say six hours to like get your peak

dose and then come down from that dose.

423

:

So you need.

424

:

time to do that.

425

:

You can't, you're not going

to be able to be working and

426

:

you don't want to be working.

427

:

Um, whereas a micro dose

is like a 10th of a gram.

428

:

So compared to like, well, let's say

a macro dose at three grams, think

429

:

of a micro dose as a tenth of a gram.

430

:

And most people don't really, you don't

have any visuals when you take that.

431

:

You're not going to be seeing like

shapes and, geometric patterns or the

432

:

furniture's not going to be breathing.

433

:

That happened to me in my microdose

where the couch was breathing.

434

:

And I was like, no, you're

not supposed to breathe.

435

:

But the microdose, you're

not going to have that.

436

:

You can drive on a microdose.

437

:

You can go to work.

438

:

And so people use micro dosing,

almost like, taking a pill.

439

:

You know, you take a pill every most

of your medications you take every day.

440

:

Now, most people don't

micro dose every single day.

441

:

There are protocols that you follow.

442

:

And those, I list some of

those protocols in the book.

443

:

There's like the Fadiman

protocol and the Stamets.

444

:

stack.

445

:

And that involves taking a micro

dose for like, certain days of the

446

:

week and then taking off a few days.

447

:

And then eventually you have

like a washout week where you

448

:

don't take anything at all.

449

:

And that's just to prevent, um,

building up a tolerance essentially.

450

:

Plus taking a moment to say, do

I need to continue doing this?

451

:

So micro dosing is something that people

do pretty regularly with in certain

452

:

contexts, following certain patterns.

453

:

And then macro dosing is something

that you're not doing regularly because

454

:

who has six hours on a Saturday to,

to trip and prepare for that and like,

455

:

then come down from that and maybe

have another day of rest after that.

456

:

That's like an ordeal,

you know, in a good way.

457

:

But who has time every weekend to do that?

458

:

So you're typically doing

more of a macro dose.

459

:

Um, Like maybe you do it yearly,

maybe you do it twice a year or maybe

460

:

once a quarter, you know, it's going

to depend on the person and doesn't

461

:

have to be at a specific pattern.

462

:

It's just not something that

you're doing every day because we

463

:

would not be functioning in life.

464

:

We were doing that every day.

465

:

So that's important to understand.

466

:

So people use micro dosing more for

having better focus during the day,

467

:

feeling less anxiety, maybe managing

symptoms of depression, things like that.

468

:

And then people use macro dosing

for as a deeper journey to gain

469

:

insights, learn about themselves.

470

:

And again, we can talk about

all the brain science there.

471

:

And I think that it's so macro

dosing can actually be very lasting,

472

:

And that's why you don't also

need to do it very frequently.

473

:

So if you're battling a mental health

condition, and you're, trying to

474

:

combat depression a macrodose we're

learning through research may last I

475

:

mean, you're not continually tripping,

but the benefits last for, um, like

476

:

up to a year, maybe six months.

477

:

It's going to depend on the person

and what they're dealing with.

478

:

But you don't need to macrodose regularly,

but you may choose to microdose.

479

:

And microdosing can really support your

macro, like in between your macrodose.

480

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Interesting.

481

:

Yeah.

482

:

That's okay.

483

:

That's good to know.

484

:

I am always curious too.

485

:

Like if someone does the micro dosing

first, is it less likely that they'll

486

:

have the more challenging experiences

with the macro or not necessarily?

487

:

I mean, does it come

at it from a different,

488

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

There's not really any literature

489

:

or research on that in terms of

like, if you micro dose, do you

490

:

have a better macro dose experience?

491

:

Um, I, I personally think people

should do, uh, this is just my opinion.

492

:

I love the idea of somebody doing

a macro dose and then using micro

493

:

dosing to support that experience.

494

:

So there's another term, and we'll

get into this later, but there's

495

:

another term in psychedelics.

496

:

in the psychedelic community

called integration.

497

:

And so integration is really

that process of learning from

498

:

your experience with psilocybin.

499

:

And so, um, when you are, you know,

after you've done your trip or

500

:

your journey, you would you could

talk to a psychedelic assisted

501

:

therapist who does integration work.

502

:

There are integration circle,

like communities out there.

503

:

It's like group therapy, essentially

just talking about your experience.

504

:

experience or you can also

just do that yourself.

505

:

You can journal, which is what I

did for my, most of my integration.

506

:

And that was really

beneficial to me as a writer.

507

:

Um, but yeah, so integration is that

process of learning from that experience.

508

:

And so people then use a micro dosing to

tap back into some of their experiences.

509

:

It's not that you're going to be

tripping, but you might, feel,

510

:

you might think back to your.

511

:

While you're microdosing, you might

think back to your macrodose and then

512

:

gain newer insights as you go along.

513

:

So that's just a way that I think

microdosing can support that macrodose.

514

:

Yes.

515

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Fascinating.

516

:

That's cool.

517

:

So one question that

just came to mind too.

518

:

Rewinding a little bit to the

discussion about indigenous use of this.

519

:

I, I think it's really important

too, for people to understand the

520

:

perspective of using this as medicine

versus just a recreational drug.

521

:

Right.

522

:

I think that that can perpetuate

that stigma we were talking about.

523

:

And am I correct in saying that

typically this was used medicinally

524

:

or is used medicinally when.

525

:

You know, with, by indigenous

people versus what we think

526

:

of with like a party drug.

527

:

Like

528

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, right.

529

:

So, like, certainly Indigenous communities

do, um, ceremony, and I suppose you could

530

:

think of a ceremony as somewhat of a

party or like a mini festival, but it's

531

:

You know, it's not like we're thinking

about that classic, guy going to a

532

:

festival and being like, I'm on mushrooms.

533

:

You know, it's not like that.

534

:

It's very medicinal.

535

:

Yes.

536

:

People do use in indigenous communities.

537

:

They do use psychedelics medicinally, but

there is a, there can be a recreational

538

:

component for, um, like facilitating

community and connection within you

539

:

know, a tribe, things like that.

540

:

So, so it's a mix of.

541

:

Both.

542

:

But yes, definitely a

major medicinal component.

543

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Cool.

544

:

Thanks for clarifying that.

545

:

Yeah.

546

:

I think it's an important distinction.

547

:

So tell us a little bit how psilocybin

actually works and why it can

548

:

be an effective tool for healing

and specifically behavior change.

549

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

550

:

So I'll walk through a

few different concepts.

551

:

My favorite is, well, I have

several favorites, but one that

552

:

really helps people understand is

the, it's called the rebus model.

553

:

And this was created by Dr.

554

:

Robin Carhart Harris and Dr.

555

:

Carl J.

556

:

Friston.

557

:

They're prolific, uh, scientific

researchers in the psychedelic space.

558

:

I just like to give credit

where credit is due.

559

:

So people don't think I came

up with it, but so it's rebus.

560

:

And so what these researchers are

essentially saying, they have a great

561

:

analogy for it, but what they're

essentially saying is that so we think

562

:

back to childhood, our minds were super

flexible in terms of we hadn't formed our

563

:

identities yet or about we have, Formed

our beliefs about how the world around us

564

:

operates that comes later in adulthood.

565

:

I mean, of course we start to develop our

identities, especially in adolescence, and

566

:

we learn about the world in adolescence.

567

:

But by the time we're in

adulthood, our minds are have

568

:

become very rigid, which sounds.

569

:

weird, but childhood flexible

and then adulthood very rigid.

570

:

And that's simply because those

belief patterns about ourselves

571

:

become very solidified and locked in

place, and they're hard to change.

572

:

And then same thing with how

the world around us operates.

573

:

It just kind of gets locked in.

574

:

And so this is where sometimes depression

can crop up, eating disorders can crop up.

575

:

And of course, this can happen

in, the teenage years as well.

576

:

But it's just as we grow

older, we get that rigidity.

577

:

Okay.

578

:

And so the analogy that I love is we can

think about our minds when we're in a

579

:

normal state of consciousness as being

super rigid, almost like a frozen pond.

580

:

So if you think of your mind,

it's just like ice, right?

581

:

Now, if you were going to try to take

a new belief, let's say you're trying

582

:

to change, um, a thought pattern

or just a belief about yourself.

583

:

Maybe you have social anxiety and

you're trying to change this idea that

584

:

you're not good in social settings.

585

:

If you were to think of that.

586

:

beliefs as a rock, and you

try to drop it on that frozen

587

:

pond, it doesn't gain entry.

588

:

It just goes thunk, and nothing happens.

589

:

Maybe it cracks the ice a

little bit, but that's it.

590

:

Now, when you're on a psychedelic,

this is where the relaxed beliefs

591

:

under psychedelics comes in, then

we have almost like a thawed pond.

592

:

So now you have water.

593

:

Now you take that rock in the form of

a new belief, or the new belief in the

594

:

form of a rock is what I'm trying to say.

595

:

You drop it in, and it, create it gains

entry and it creates this ripple effect.

596

:

And so now you've gotten a new belief

into your mind and it's going, it's likely

597

:

to stick when you're on the psychedelic.

598

:

And so why does this happen?

599

:

Well, in a normal state of consciousness,

we have almost like this hierarchy of.

600

:

beliefs.

601

:

And so if you think about like a

corporate structure, we can think of

602

:

our beliefs is like this corporation

and you've got your CEOs at the top

603

:

and they're very bossy and domineering.

604

:

And then they don't listen to

any like, employee that's like

605

:

lower on the ladder, right?

606

:

They're like, Oh, those

people don't matter.

607

:

And so we can think of those as like

those beliefs that we really want to,

608

:

we want to add them to our mind, but

our brains will not let us because

609

:

we've got these domineering CEOs.

610

:

Now, when we're on a psychedelic, that

hierarchy just sort of goes away, and so

611

:

that the employees, the beliefs on the

lower end of the ladder, they they get

612

:

a chance to sort of climb up that ladder

and make, make changes in your mind.

613

:

About certain things.

614

:

So again, going back to this idea

of like we had social anxiety or

615

:

we're trying to change that, that

whatever beliefs are kind of rooting

616

:

you in that it's really hard to do

in a normal state of consciousness.

617

:

But with that relaxed beliefs under

psychedelics, it's much easier to

618

:

change when you're on a psychedelic.

619

:

So this is really why Psychedelics

work, especially for changing, making

620

:

behavior change, but also we have this

increased level of neuroplasticity

621

:

after using a psychedelic.

622

:

And so, um, neuroplasticity, if

I were to try to explain that, I

623

:

just say it's like your brain is

sort of blooming and flowering.

624

:

We're growing new dendrites and synapses.

625

:

And so, we can really lean into making

behavior change and implementing behavior

626

:

change after using a psychedelic.

627

:

So if you use psilocybin and you are,

you're, one of your goals is maybe I want

628

:

to quit drinking or I want to drink less.

629

:

This is a great time to start

implementing that behavior change.

630

:

It's not going to happen just

automatically because you did psilocybin.

631

:

You need to lean into you know, now make

some of those behavior changes of like,

632

:

okay, I'm going to try to just have three

drinks a week instead of 10, or whatever

633

:

it is, like just making up a number.

634

:

But you may find that you don't even

want to reach for that the drink anymore.

635

:

It just, but you have to do

some of that work as well.

636

:

The other concept I want to bring up is

called it's called the helioscope effect.

637

:

So what this means is that, so

this researcher, his name is Dr.

638

:

Gregor Hassler and he's at Freiburg

University, I think that's in Germany,

639

:

but he came up with this concept called

the helioscope effect to explain why

640

:

when we go on a psychedelic are we

able to reprocess trauma and deal

641

:

with trauma a little bit better.

642

:

So the issue is that in In normal

states of consciousness, our

643

:

trauma is really triggering.

644

:

We avoid thinking about it.

645

:

We don't want to think about traumatic

events because they trigger us and

646

:

make us feel really uncomfortable.

647

:

Our heart rate rises and we just get

like, Oh, I don't want to deal with this.

648

:

Um, but when you're on a psychedelic, we

have what's called this helioscope effect.

649

:

And a helioscope is an, in

science is an instrument with it.

650

:

Scientists use to look at the sun because

You don't want to be looking at the sun,

651

:

you know, directly and pro tip there.

652

:

But, um, because you'll get burned, right?

653

:

But the same concept

applies to our trauma.

654

:

We don't want to look at our trauma

in a normal state of consciousness all

655

:

the time, because it does freak us out.

656

:

But when you are on a psychedelic, it's

like you have this helioscope instrument.

657

:

It allows you to see your trauma from

a safe distance and through a new lens

658

:

without getting burned, essentially,

and, uh, and then it gives you this.

659

:

new filter to reprocess your trauma

that you wouldn't have access to

660

:

in a normal state of consciousness.

661

:

So that can be really highly beneficial

for people dealing with trauma is

662

:

that beautiful helioscope effect.

663

:

Now, of course, I do want to correlate

this back to our discussion about bad

664

:

or challenging trips, because initially

when your mind is so that, you know,

665

:

when you take a psychedelic, especially

like with psilocybin, it's going to do,

666

:

it's going to work on your brain, on the

things that are in your brain already.

667

:

So it's not giving you new ideas,

unless you're like, trying to, add

668

:

a new idea to your mind, of course.

669

:

But it's working on things that

you need to work on, because our

670

:

subconscious knows What's up in there?

671

:

You know, it's like, hey, you

need to work on this, right?

672

:

So that's what's happening

when you take a psychedelic.

673

:

The mushroom is going to take you

where you need to go the most.

674

:

But that can feel uncomfortable at first

just because like our normal resistance

675

:

in everyday life would be like, Oh,

if someone's going to talk about a

676

:

sexual assault and that's triggering

for you, then you're like nope, nope.

677

:

But on a psychedelic, you, um, you

again, may have that anxiety first

678

:

come up, but if you sit with it and

avoid that resistance, you'll be

679

:

able to hopefully view that trauma

from that safe new lens, you know?

680

:

So I, I just love the helioscope effect

because it just makes so much sense.

681

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

It's fascinating.

682

:

And it reminds me, you know,

I, I talked with Nicole field.

683

:

She came on and talked about

somatic stress release work.

684

:

And, we talked about how

the body stores everything.

685

:

People may be familiar with that

book, The Body Keeps the Score.

686

:

I mean, we know now that our experiences

are stored on a physiological level.

687

:

So is that part of what's working

here is that these things that are

688

:

sort of stored in our minds or bodies

somewhere are now coming to the surface?

689

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, I think one of the things to

690

:

remember is that if you've had, and I'll

talk about this later too, if you've had

691

:

adverse childhood experiences or what

the scientific community, it calls ACEs.

692

:

So these are anything that could have

happened to you in childhood, like,

693

:

uh, abuse, neglect living through.

694

:

Extreme poverty, systemic racism in your

community, having a violent household,

695

:

parents who were very volatile, a parent

who was incarcerated, severe childhood

696

:

illness, losing a parent, you know,

they, somebody died in your family,

697

:

these are adverse childhood experiences

and it's they're very traumatic and they

698

:

cause, they actually cause changes in

our body to our actual stress response.

699

:

So we have the, uh, you know,

our fight or flight system.

700

:

It messes with that fight or flight

system and changes how we use

701

:

cortisol, how we're using glucose,

insulin, all of these things.

702

:

It permanently changes that.

703

:

And so, yes, that is, those traumas are

stored in your body to a certain degree.

704

:

And when we use psilocybin, if we're,

doing this in a very therapeutic

705

:

context, trying to work on, Stress

or trauma or depression or anxiety.

706

:

It's almost like it can reset that or

it can help reset that stress response

707

:

to a certain degree so that it can

maybe calm that fight or flight system

708

:

down a bit because it's so hyperactive

and people who've experienced trauma

709

:

and, to put this into context, one

in six adults has experienced stress.

710

:

For or more adverse childhood experiences.

711

:

So that's an alarming amount of trauma

that just the world is carrying around.

712

:

And so a lot of us are walking

around with an active, highly

713

:

more activated stress response.

714

:

And It, it's harmful.

715

:

It's all, it's harmful to

our, it's nobody's fault.

716

:

It's just, it's harmful

to our metabolic health.

717

:

Um, so it can change the way that

we, again, process insulin and

718

:

glucose, which can lead to obesity,

it can lead to heart disease.

719

:

High cholesterol, all of.

720

:

factors that are related

to our metabolic health.

721

:

And then, we're going to talk

about menopause later too.

722

:

But the, another thing just to

think about in terms of with the

723

:

female body, when we've had four or

more ACEs, that is likely to give

724

:

us a worsened menopause symptoms.

725

:

So things like hot flashes

and it's because it's all

726

:

tied to that metabolic health.

727

:

So trauma has a very

lasting effect on our lives.

728

:

And it does seem like

psilocybin helps with that.

729

:

We've gotten new research that

has just come out this fall that

730

:

shows that psilocybin does reduce

that psychological response to

731

:

our adverse childhood experiences.

732

:

So I'm planning to write about that

for an article at some point, but

733

:

just wanted to bring that up because

it's so important to think about

734

:

what, how can we work with our trauma?

735

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, that's amazing.

736

:

And.

737

:

Having done talk therapy for years,

like, it's great to get things off your

738

:

chest and have someone to talk to, but

it really wasn't until I started seeing

739

:

a therapist who uses somatic modalities

that I felt like, okay, through this

740

:

work, I'm, it's not erasing memories of

bad things that happened, but they just

741

:

don't carry that emotional charge anymore.

742

:

They don't have that

power over me anymore.

743

:

So I think that that's a really cool

thing to dive into, from any with any

744

:

modality, it can be really important

because that's what kind of enables you to

745

:

move forward and grow and change behavior

change, or just be free of the emotional

746

:

burden that those things can put on us.

747

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yes,

748

:

absolutely.

749

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

750

:

And I really want to dive into the

metabolic health piece of this,

751

:

because that's something that

I'm always yammering on about.

752

:

My listeners and my clients get sick of

it, but I'm always saying, look, if you're

753

:

in a constant state of that, you know,

activated sympathetic nervous system.

754

:

Fight or fight response, like your

body doesn't want to burn fat.

755

:

Your body is going to

conserve real efficiently.

756

:

Like your stress hormones are

going to be elevated all the time.

757

:

Like your cells don't understand the

difference between constant chronic stress

758

:

and continually running from a predator

or continually being in a famine state.

759

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Right.

760

:

Yeah.

761

:

When we have a stress response,

like let's say that you're driving

762

:

in your car and you almost get into

a, like a fender bender, right?

763

:

You're, you have that, everyone

knows that surge of adrenaline

764

:

that you get from that moment.

765

:

And there are many other

things to think about.

766

:

And of course, that surge of adrenaline

is there historically to protect us.

767

:

So, back in the day of, caveman

days, there were men running

768

:

from tigers or whatever.

769

:

I don't know what predators were all

out there then, but they were there.

770

:

And so you needed that surge of

adrenaline to power your body.

771

:

And people don't understand

what that is actually doing.

772

:

When you get that cortisol release and

the norepinephrine, it drives glucose

773

:

into your bloodstream so that you have

the energy to run from the threat.

774

:

Right.

775

:

But.

776

:

In our normal states, we, in

everyday life, we aren't under threat

777

:

running from predators generally.

778

:

I mean, maybe sometimes, but

it's there for you to have a good

779

:

reaction in that near fender bender.

780

:

But if we're constantly in that heightened

state of stress and and Feeling like we're

781

:

under threat, which many people who've

experienced trauma constantly feel that

782

:

it's hyper vigilance were hyper aware that

we're like, Oh, we were under threat at

783

:

any moment that's constantly happening.

784

:

You're just getting this constant glucose

dump into your bloodstream and it, you

785

:

know, then that affects insulin release

and and then that can lead to obesity and

786

:

other things with metabolic health too.

787

:

Sorry to take it on a metabolic

health tangent, but I'm also very

788

:

passionate about metabolic health.

789

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yes.

790

:

Absolutely.

791

:

I am too.

792

:

And I think that it's so crucial because

again, twice as many women will be

793

:

diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease as men.

794

:

We now know, I mean, they're calling

Alzheimer's disease type three diabetes.

795

:

We know that there is a direct link

now between glucose dysregulation

796

:

and insulin resistance.

797

:

and brain health.

798

:

And it starts in middle age, not old age.

799

:

You know, so most of my

listeners out there are going

800

:

to be in their thirties and up.

801

:

I mean, this is the time to start

paying attention to these things

802

:

and doing this work and it, yes,

nutrition and exercise matter.

803

:

But I think that the emotional

work is even more of a

804

:

foundational piece than that.

805

:

I think that it's, and not

everyone's going to be.

806

:

So I'm not sure if it's something that

you're comfortable doing, you know,

807

:

using psychedelics, but whether that's

one route for you or not, there are

808

:

plenty of other options out there.

809

:

And I think that it's just such a

crucial piece because that stress

810

:

response, especially if it's

an ongoing thing in your body,

811

:

it's going to affect your health

812

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yes.

813

:

Yeah.

814

:

In

815

:

the long

816

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

in every possible way.

817

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

absolutely.

818

:

And, to your point, you were talking

about dementia being, more prevalent

819

:

in women and it really starts to

happen as we get into perimenopause and

820

:

menopause with that estrogen drop that

puts us at risk for dementia processes.

821

:

It changes are the way our body

handles glucose and insulin.

822

:

So it's just this compounding factor

is going through that menopause time.

823

:

It's not that the menopause is bad.

824

:

It's just a natural part of life.

825

:

But we do need to be much more vigilant

about our metabolic health as we get

826

:

into That era of our lives because of

all the risk factors that crop up because

827

:

of the decline in estrogen including

heart disease and one thing I'll take

828

:

it on just this mini tangent But I think

you know heart disease is a problem for

829

:

women But the medic like people don't

really know about that I would say that

830

:

in general people think of like heart

attacks and stroke is happening to men

831

:

more often But it is happening to women.

832

:

It's happening to women in middle age and

so if you've got a heart condition or if

833

:

you've Got anything that's cropping up as

a heart symptom, definitely talk to your

834

:

doctor about it and be persistent about it

because women are dying of heart attacks.

835

:

They are having strokes and we are,

more at risk and the common thing that

836

:

happens is if you go in and you say,

Oh, I'm having heart palpitations.

837

:

What is your doctor going to say?

838

:

Oh, you have anxiety and that

839

:

may not be the case.

840

:

It may just be that you are having

an arrhythmia or something and

841

:

it needs to be taken care of.

842

:

Just wanted to bring that up.

843

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

I'm glad that you brought it up.

844

:

That actually happened

to me a couple years ago.

845

:

I was having full blown like, and.

846

:

We've only known recently how

differently symptoms present in women

847

:

for heart attacks they do in men.

848

:

You know, We're used to hearing

about the chest pain, the left arm

849

:

tingling, numbness, That is very

typical for men, whereas women,

850

:

they might feel flu symptoms.

851

:

might feel, you know, like nausea or

sudden fatigue, all of these things.

852

:

And yeah, I had that happen

to me a couple of years ago.

853

:

It was not a heart attack, but thankfully

I had a functional medicine female

854

:

doctor who knew What to look for.

855

:

And I had to go through a

ridiculous battery of tests.

856

:

But yeah, there were some irregularities

going on there and it was really

857

:

lucky that we figured it If we

alone, there could have been a real

858

:

a real problem

859

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

860

:

I'm so sorry.

861

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Oh, thanks.

862

:

You know, It's I'm grateful it now because

it it was a wake up call for me And I

863

:

was under way too much Not necessarily

because oh my god, my life right now is

864

:

so stressful But like you say my nervous

system was just sort of stuck in this

865

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

hmm.

866

:

It can happen.

867

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

And I couldn't really shift into that

868

:

parasympathetic place of, you know,

what we call rest and digest where I

869

:

could truly relax and turn off truly

like my body and brain did not feel

870

:

fully safe to do that.

871

:

And so it was a real, it really

rattled me and kind of said, look, you

872

:

might practice what you preach when

it comes to fitness and nutrition,

873

:

but when it comes to your mental

wellbeing and your emotional health.

874

:

Something's

875

:

got to

876

:

give, it's got to shift and I

really, we have to prioritize that.

877

:

And that is something that in all the

work that I do with my clients, I'm

878

:

constantly reiterating, like, look, I

can give you the best tools in the world.

879

:

I can give you the best

diet, the best workout plan.

880

:

You might do it to a T, but if

your emotional you know, emotional,

881

:

spiritual, mental health is suffering,

or you're in this chronic stress Guess

882

:

what?

883

:

You're still gonna

884

:

struggle a

885

:

lot.

886

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

It's still going to affect you.

887

:

Of course.

888

:

It's so important.

889

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, absolutely.

890

:

Um, you had mentioned to me too we

were talking about, because obviously,

891

:

you know, behavior change is a big

Piece of look if you know, we're

892

:

coming into perimenopause or middle

age and we're needing to make changes

893

:

to our lifestyle behaviors Maybe

we are having to address address.

894

:

Excuse me addictive behaviors be

it alcohol sugar, you know Whatever

895

:

that might be for some people.

896

:

It's exercise

897

:

over exercising Yeah, but you had

mentioned to me that there are

898

:

actual clinical trials that talk

about how psilocybin can help

899

:

with addictive

900

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

901

:

So there are a few clinical

trials out there going right now.

902

:

Um, And one is for alcohol use disorder.

903

:

And there were actually probably

several clinical trials related

904

:

to alcohol use disorder.

905

:

Others are for opioid use disorder.

906

:

And there's even, there were even studying

psilocybin for, um, smoking cessation.

907

:

So obviously smoking is highly and,

uh, has damaging health effects.

908

:

But what people don't realize is that

the, um, the female body is different

909

:

than the, I mean, the male body.

910

:

In general, the female body is

different than the male body.

911

:

But when it comes to smoking

cessation, for example, we have women

912

:

have different nicotine receptors.

913

:

Like our nicotine receptors are

different than in the male body.

914

:

And if you think about all those smoking

cessation products that um, you know,

915

:

uh, nicotine gum or patches, they

all work on the nicotine receptors.

916

:

And typically, I mean, yes, they can work

for women, but it's, it makes, it's still

917

:

harder for women to quit because of the

difference in the nicotine receptors.

918

:

And a lot of those products.

919

:

don't work adequately for women.

920

:

So I'm really excited that

psilocybin is being studied for that.

921

:

But a that, um, the addiction, I would say

the the literature surrounding addictive

922

:

behaviors and psilocybin, like how can

that help kind of goes back to that rebus.

923

:

model why am I, why am I

addicted to the substance?

924

:

Why am using this?

925

:

Is it is it a behavior

thing that I can change?

926

:

And, you know, by incorporating

new belief systems into your

927

:

mind, can you make those changes?

928

:

So certainly related to that, but

there's also a lot that happens in our

929

:

during, um, you know, using psilocybin,

especially in a therapeutic setting.

930

:

That works on different brain networks.

931

:

we have in our, in our mind or

in our brains, there's something

932

:

called a default mode network.

933

:

And that is a network of brain

regions that work together to

934

:

form like our sense of self.

935

:

It's concerned with our like

memories, anything, if you're

936

:

thinking about the past or the future.

937

:

future your mind's kind of wandering.

938

:

It's very active.

939

:

It also involves our empathy,

including empathy for ourselves,

940

:

but also empathy for others.

941

:

So it's just really

important brain network.

942

:

And so there's a lot happening with

that network when you're on psilocybin

943

:

that can be beneficial for um, it's

it's interesting and I like to explore.

944

:

Explain So, um, again, this is a

brain network of brain regions that

945

:

work together, but when you're on

psilocybin, um, it changes what's

946

:

connected and what's not connected.

947

:

So it's like things that are normally

connected in the default moat network

948

:

will disconnect, and then things

that are normally not will connect.

949

:

So I, I liken it to like thinking about

you've got an outlet in your house and

950

:

we've all Take all the cords out and then

plug them back into different outlets.

951

:

I like to think of it that

way That's what's happening.

952

:

And so there's a lot of stuff that could

be going on with addictive behaviors That

953

:

could be changed on the other side of

it Now, of course your brain goes back

954

:

to normal connectivity once you're off

of psilocybin I don't want people to be

955

:

freaked out that your brain's going to be

all scrambled or something but it it does

956

:

have these beneficial effects in terms

of Again, I'm dealing with some of that

957

:

rigidity that we have in a normal state

of consciousness, getting new beliefs

958

:

in there and then working on patterns

that are really no longer serving you.

959

:

So, you know, if I'm sitting here

drinking three glasses of wine a

960

:

night, that's not healthy for me

and it's not really serving me well.

961

:

I know I want to change it,

but it's hard to change.

962

:

And so I think that some of

that, that relaxed beliefs

963

:

under psychedelics takes effect.

964

:

for these addictive behaviors.

965

:

But people are finding in clinical

trials that it reduces their heavy

966

:

drinking, the number of heavy

drinking days that they have.

967

:

Um, I, I'm a, I'm I'm a classic example.

968

:

I did, um, uh, macro dose over a year

ago and I've dramatically cut back

969

:

on drinking, like, you know, I would

probably be having one or two glasses

970

:

a night of wine and now like, I'll go

like a week without touching it or, you

971

:

know, many days without touching it.

972

:

It's just not something I'm reaching to.

973

:

Constantly, but I've done work on that.

974

:

You know, I focused on like, I drinking?

975

:

What, What am I doing that for?

976

:

know, this isn't great for my liver.

977

:

So I've really

978

:

been

979

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Or your hormones or your

980

:

brain.

981

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, well, it's not great for anything.

982

:

But, um, you know, yeah, I'm

not against wine and It's great.

983

:

But, um, it, it is something that I

think women tend to turn to quite a

984

:

bit, especially middle age when we're

struggling with so many different things.

985

:

We've got our careers.

986

:

We've got, you know, there are

people that have, I don't have

987

:

kids myself, but other people do.

988

:

And, so there's kids, there's

careers And And then something I'm

989

:

dealing with too in my life right

now is caring for aging parents.

990

:

And that's really stressful.

991

:

And if you've got all things going on at

992

:

once,

993

:

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

So many of us are at that

994

:

stage.

995

:

It's a

996

:

lot.

997

:

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

And so we're we're classically going to

998

:

be reaching for things that numb us out.

999

:

And that might be ultra processed foods.

:

00:49:57,556 --> 00:50:00,096

It um, you know, cigarettes.

:

00:50:00,106 --> 00:50:02,046

It might online shopping.

:

00:50:02,076 --> 00:50:05,366

know, it could be anything that you're

using to sort of numb yourself, but

:

00:50:05,366 --> 00:50:09,756

there's so much science coming out now

and research that psilocybin can help

:

00:50:09,756 --> 00:50:11,326

with some, making some of these behavior

:

00:50:13,456 --> 00:50:15,086

-:

You know, we didn't talk about this

:

00:50:15,096 --> 00:50:17,136

previously, but I'm really curious.

:

00:50:17,186 --> 00:50:22,976

So as someone who was recently, like

less than a year ago, diagnosed with

:

00:50:23,006 --> 00:50:28,076

ADHD, and I know it's often, it's more

often diagnosed in women once they

:

00:50:28,196 --> 00:50:31,356

reach perimenopause because the hormonal

changes and the drops in estrogen,

:

00:50:31,366 --> 00:50:33,396

things can exacerbate the symptoms.

:

00:50:33,796 --> 00:50:36,226

Um, for me, I had many of

the symptoms my whole life.

:

00:50:36,226 --> 00:50:39,066

I just didn't realize that

that was going on, but curious.

:

00:50:40,626 --> 00:50:43,856

Psilocybin help at all

with that aspect of it?

:

00:50:43,856 --> 00:50:45,996

And maybe you want to table

that till we get into the

:

00:50:46,356 --> 00:50:48,506

menopause section of the talk

:

00:50:48,516 --> 00:50:49,316

today, but I'm

:

00:50:49,316 --> 00:50:49,956

so curious.

:

00:50:49,986 --> 00:50:50,436

-:

No, I'm.

:

00:50:50,816 --> 00:50:55,086

Happy to talk about ADHD and then

we can get to menopause later.

:

00:50:55,096 --> 00:51:00,016

Um, But yeah, so with ADHD, a lot of

people are using microdosing to help with

:

00:51:00,016 --> 00:51:05,426

that because microdosing is, a lot of

ADHD out there are a stimulant, right?

:

00:51:05,466 --> 00:51:11,586

And so, microdosing, um, psilocybin is, it

does have a stimulant and so it can help

:

00:51:11,671 --> 00:51:13,736

focus, like cutting out all the noise.

:

00:51:14,341 --> 00:51:17,921

Um, and the other thing that, um,

so I have a whole chapter on this.

:

00:51:17,931 --> 00:51:22,701

There's a woman that I interviewed

who had, she has severe ADHD.

:

00:51:22,731 --> 00:51:26,081

And so she said she's not

necessarily using microdosing as

:

00:51:26,081 --> 00:51:30,821

like a tool for that, but she's

done macro doses to help with ADHD.

:

00:51:30,821 --> 00:51:32,397

And one of the things that

she mentioned that was just.

:

00:51:32,712 --> 00:51:36,212

I felt like this was really profound

was if you've, if you've struggled

:

00:51:36,212 --> 00:51:41,556

with ADHD all your life, or I mean,

just really point in time, um, it

:

00:51:41,556 --> 00:51:45,546

can be a little traumatic because,

um, the world expects you to operate

:

00:51:45,556 --> 00:51:47,256

in like a quote unquote normal way.

:

00:51:47,266 --> 00:51:48,226

You're supposed to be organized.

:

00:51:48,226 --> 00:51:51,981

You're supposed to, you know, Have

a schedule or do this and do that.

:

00:51:52,011 --> 00:51:54,321

It's a lot of things to keep of and do.

:

00:51:54,361 --> 00:51:56,891

And the ADHD brain just

does not work that way.

:

00:51:57,221 --> 00:51:59,841

But the the world expects

you to work that way.

:

00:52:00,041 --> 00:52:04,431

And so that can create a lot of

trauma for the individual, especially

:

00:52:04,441 --> 00:52:07,741

children when they have ADHD and all

the adults in their lives are like,

:

00:52:08,011 --> 00:52:11,471

you know, telling them that they're bad

because they're not behaving properly

:

00:52:11,471 --> 00:52:12,991

or whatever is expected of them.

:

00:52:13,261 --> 00:52:13,371

them.

:

00:52:13,701 --> 00:52:17,561

And it's just not feasible for many

people with ADHD to behave certain

:

00:52:17,561 --> 00:52:18,711

world expects them to behave.

:

00:52:18,711 --> 00:52:25,441

So she was using psilocybin to, um, that

or work on that trauma that resulted

:

00:52:25,441 --> 00:52:29,241

from childhood of, you know, where adults

are just expecting her teachers, parents

:

00:52:29,241 --> 00:52:31,021

expecting her to be a certain way.

:

00:52:31,041 --> 00:52:34,981

So I think that's a fascinating

component and I'm hoping researchers

:

00:52:35,011 --> 00:52:37,401

do do some more studying with ADHD.

:

00:52:37,421 --> 00:52:41,025

for psilocybin to see what are

some results that might crop up.

:

00:52:41,677 --> 00:52:44,294

-:

love that because you, and am I correct?

:

00:52:44,304 --> 00:52:49,659

Is, Is it less, I mean, when we're

talking about any pharmaceutical,

:

00:52:49,659 --> 00:52:50,709

there are always downsides.

:

00:52:52,074 --> 00:53:00,354

So for rather be able to use

a plant and, you know, avoid

:

00:53:00,454 --> 00:53:04,614

potential side effects that a drug

or pharmaceutical may have for me.

:

00:53:04,614 --> 00:53:09,414

I mean, for example, like I use a

stimulant ADHD medication as needed.

:

00:53:09,684 --> 00:53:11,964

So I only take it maybe twice a week.

:

00:53:12,004 --> 00:53:15,484

I have a really, really low dose

that happens to work for me.

:

00:53:15,484 --> 00:53:18,186

And, I had to go through a bunch more.

:

00:53:19,322 --> 00:53:22,302

Cardiac tests and things, um,

cardiovascular testing just to

:

00:53:22,302 --> 00:53:24,872

make sure that that was safe for

me to take, even I'd rather I'd

:

00:53:24,872 --> 00:53:26,302

rather not have to take that.

:

00:53:26,742 --> 00:53:31,992

Um, and you know, if I can use something

that doesn't have the potential side

:

00:53:31,992 --> 00:53:36,167

effects or isn't depleting my magnesium or

all these things that this drug could do,

:

00:53:36,394 --> 00:53:37,454

I would much rather take

:

00:53:37,454 --> 00:53:38,014

that route.

:

00:53:38,919 --> 00:53:39,669

-:

Sure.

:

00:53:39,679 --> 00:53:41,299

Yeah, absolutely.

:

00:53:42,064 --> 00:53:43,614

-:

Do we know about potential

:

00:53:43,614 --> 00:53:44,644

side effects or things that,

:

00:53:44,823 --> 00:53:46,113

that psilocybin have?

:

00:53:46,556 --> 00:53:49,406

-:

yeah, so, um, if you're macro dosing,

:

00:53:49,456 --> 00:53:52,816

I mean either macro dosing or micro

dosing, it's important to know

:

00:53:52,816 --> 00:53:56,926

that psilocybin does elevate your

heart rate and your blood pressure.

:

00:53:56,936 --> 00:54:00,076

So it's important that if you have

any heart condition that you do talk

:

00:54:00,076 --> 00:54:02,446

to a medical professional to make

sure that that would be something

:

00:54:02,446 --> 00:54:03,926

that would be for you to do.

:

00:54:04,286 --> 00:54:06,706

Um, And so that's something to consider.

:

00:54:06,706 --> 00:54:09,196

And it, you know, it does have

a bit of that stimulant effect.

:

00:54:09,196 --> 00:54:12,516

And so that's why it might be effective

for some people It's going to be

:

00:54:12,516 --> 00:54:15,578

different person person and the,

level of, their, their experience with

:

00:54:15,578 --> 00:54:17,928

ADHD, it's, it's very individualized.

:

00:54:17,987 --> 00:54:21,237

But, um, but those are the two

side effects to, to consider in

:

00:54:21,237 --> 00:54:24,047

the, you know, short term when

you're actually on the, the drug.

:

00:54:24,108 --> 00:54:29,216

and then in the long term, it's important

to know that, um, uh, some research

:

00:54:29,216 --> 00:54:34,176

is coming out to say that, psilocybin,

if microdosing super regularly, like,

:

00:54:34,446 --> 00:54:37,903

you know, pretty constantly, That,

uh, it's possible that that could

:

00:54:37,903 --> 00:54:39,723

create an arrhythmia with your heart.

:

00:54:39,733 --> 00:54:42,973

And that has to do with the serotonin,

the serotonin pathways that are, that's

:

00:54:42,973 --> 00:54:44,513

happening when you're on psilocybin.

:

00:54:44,893 --> 00:54:48,473

So the, the current like safety

protocol is certainly like

:

00:54:48,583 --> 00:54:50,053

take breaks from microdosing.

:

00:54:50,073 --> 00:54:51,543

Don't do it continuously.

:

00:54:51,563 --> 00:54:52,363

Plus that would.

:

00:54:52,588 --> 00:54:55,398

Create a tolerance for you anyway,

if you're doing that continuously,

:

00:54:55,668 --> 00:54:58,571

make sure you're taking breaks

and just be aware of the issue.

:

00:54:58,581 --> 00:55:01,301

Because of course, we just talked

about heart issues in women.

:

00:55:01,311 --> 00:55:05,121

And, um, you know, you don't want to

exacerbate that, uh, at a time in your

:

00:55:05,121 --> 00:55:06,791

life when you're risk for such a thing.

:

00:55:07,081 --> 00:55:11,561

So, so again, you could potentially

use, um, psilocybin as a micro dosing

:

00:55:11,601 --> 00:55:14,831

tool with ADHD, but you wouldn't,

it wouldn't be something you could

:

00:55:14,831 --> 00:55:17,721

do permanently, like every day,

you know, you'd have to be taking

:

00:55:17,771 --> 00:55:18,131

careful

:

00:55:18,141 --> 00:55:18,721

breaks.

:

00:55:18,722 --> 00:55:18,912

Thanks.

:

00:55:19,411 --> 00:55:20,231

-:

That makes sense.

:

00:55:20,251 --> 00:55:23,361

And you talked a little bit, too, in

our initial conversation about the

:

00:55:23,361 --> 00:55:26,381

timing of it, and because it does

have that stimulant effect that it's

:

00:55:26,611 --> 00:55:28,251

probably better used earlier in the

:

00:55:28,251 --> 00:55:29,221

day so that it doesn't disrupt

:

00:55:29,221 --> 00:55:29,681

sleep.

:

00:55:30,851 --> 00:55:32,721

-:

So just to mention that again, like if you

:

00:55:32,721 --> 00:55:37,848

are planning to macro dose, you know, you

do want to allow like six to eight hours

:

00:55:37,848 --> 00:55:42,348

of time there to, you know, get, you know,

it takes a little for it to activate in

:

00:55:42,348 --> 00:55:46,138

your body, just like as if you were taking

any medication and then, you know, you're

:

00:55:46,138 --> 00:55:48,928

going to hit the peak and then you're

going to time to come down from that.

:

00:55:49,198 --> 00:55:51,158

And it may affect your sleep that night.

:

00:55:51,158 --> 00:55:53,658

So, like if you're going to macro

dose, I would recommend like

:

00:55:53,668 --> 00:55:57,598

setting aside a weekend and, You

know, starting early on a Saturday.

:

00:55:57,598 --> 00:55:59,988

It sounds like, hey, I'm

gonna take some mushrooms

:

00:55:59,988 --> 00:56:00,828

at nine o'clock

:

00:56:00,828 --> 00:56:01,008

in the

:

00:56:01,008 --> 00:56:01,428

morning.

:

00:56:01,428 --> 00:56:01,928

But um,

:

00:56:02,398 --> 00:56:03,418

But if you have sleep

:

00:56:03,458 --> 00:56:04,048

-:

Skip the coffee.

:

00:56:04,078 --> 00:56:05,978

-:

I would yeah, I would recommend that

:

00:56:05,978 --> 00:56:09,028

rather than doing it like at night I

mean, it's not to say that you can't do

:

00:56:09,028 --> 00:56:12,438

it at night, but you may have trouble

sleeping I know I did the first I

:

00:56:12,448 --> 00:56:16,008

did in the evening one time and it

was I did have trouble sleeping that

:

00:56:16,018 --> 00:56:20,668

night Um, but the next time I did it

then I did it from in the morning.

:

00:56:20,678 --> 00:56:23,428

And, you know, by the time I went

to bed, I had come down quite a bit

:

00:56:23,428 --> 00:56:25,078

and had a normal night of sleep.

:

00:56:25,078 --> 00:56:28,048

then same thing with micro

dosing, um, researchers are

:

00:56:28,048 --> 00:56:29,248

starting to study this now.

:

00:56:29,248 --> 00:56:33,418

And we, we don't have all the results

on that yet, but it likely is that like,

:

00:56:33,418 --> 00:56:35,998

if you were to micro dose at night,

you might have some trouble sleeping.

:

00:56:35,998 --> 00:56:39,048

So I would recommend that if you're

micro dosing to in the day, rather

:

00:56:39,048 --> 00:56:42,548

than later, you know, it's similar

to like the concept of if you were,

:

00:56:42,568 --> 00:56:47,213

if you were to, Do like a crazy high

intensity interval workout at 10 p.

:

00:56:47,213 --> 00:56:47,473

m.

:

00:56:47,473 --> 00:56:48,373

And you want him to go to bed at

:

00:56:48,373 --> 00:56:49,173

11, you're going to be

:

00:56:49,173 --> 00:56:49,503

-:

ideal.

:

00:56:49,543 --> 00:56:49,783

Yeah.

:

00:56:50,128 --> 00:56:52,078

-:

I can relate it to that a little bit.

:

00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:54,700

-:

Yeah, well, I think it would help too.

:

00:56:54,710 --> 00:56:57,760

I mean if it's helping with focus

and things like this like it's most

:

00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,130

useful during the day like I don't need

:

00:57:00,130 --> 00:57:00,450

help with that

:

00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:01,270

when I'm asleep.

:

00:57:01,925 --> 00:57:02,275

-:

Right.

:

00:57:02,285 --> 00:57:05,255

It's not going to be like cannabis

where we, a lot of us use can, uh,

:

00:57:05,265 --> 00:57:09,025

myself included use cannabis for

like mellowing So it's not like that.

:

00:57:09,820 --> 00:57:10,750

-:

Yeah, yeah.

:

00:57:11,263 --> 00:57:16,303

Since you mentioned cannabis, I'd love to

know just really briefly how psilocybin

:

00:57:16,323 --> 00:57:20,433

is different from Other drugs out there.

:

00:57:20,463 --> 00:57:23,017

And for me, it's more appealing.

:

00:57:23,027 --> 00:57:23,687

I don't know why.

:

00:57:23,737 --> 00:57:27,727

Maybe that's that like, it just

resonates with me a little bit more.

:

00:57:27,727 --> 00:57:30,397

But, um, I am not drawn to CBD oil.

:

00:57:30,397 --> 00:57:34,857

I've had some really weird, um,

you know, reactions to that.

:

00:57:34,907 --> 00:57:37,707

And so it just doesn't draw me.

:

00:57:37,727 --> 00:57:38,547

I don't know.

:

00:57:38,987 --> 00:57:42,717

Um, But I'd love to know how this

kind of acts a little bit differently

:

00:57:42,793 --> 00:57:45,913

on the brain in comparison to

something like, you know, Okay.

:

00:57:46,213 --> 00:57:50,568

MDMA or, um, well,

ayahuasca, like the other

:

00:57:50,858 --> 00:57:51,468

-:

Yeah.

:

00:57:51,978 --> 00:57:52,598

-:

psychedelics that are

:

00:57:52,598 --> 00:57:53,298

kind of becoming

:

00:57:54,433 --> 00:57:56,513

-:

there's certainly LSD.

:

00:57:56,523 --> 00:57:57,353

So that's acid.

:

00:57:57,363 --> 00:58:00,573

Then there's, and there's,

um, MDMA, which is, you know,

:

00:58:00,573 --> 00:58:02,213

like I said, ecstasy or molly.

:

00:58:02,523 --> 00:58:05,753

And, um, you know, think about Like,

so obviously I think a lot of people

:

00:58:05,753 --> 00:58:10,083

are drawn to psilocybin because it

is natural substance, um, as opposed

:

00:58:10,103 --> 00:58:15,971

to something like acid or, MDMA and

ayahuasca is natural as well too.

:

00:58:15,971 --> 00:58:18,636

So people drawn to Natural things.

:

00:58:18,916 --> 00:58:23,833

Um, yeah, so there's some components

of, um, what happens in the brain are,

:

00:58:23,933 --> 00:58:29,513

like, also happening on MDMA or LSD

or, um, ayahuasca, and you know, I

:

00:58:29,513 --> 00:58:33,133

can't, I'm not an expert on those can't

really into all of the differences

:

00:58:33,133 --> 00:58:37,678

and the, and similarities, um, but

I, I do You know, just want to point

:

00:58:37,748 --> 00:58:42,608

out that like, uh, that acid, like

LSD and MDMA are natural substances.

:

00:58:42,608 --> 00:58:43,568

That doesn't don't approve of them.

:

00:58:43,568 --> 00:58:45,358

I, I approve of all psychedelics.

:

00:58:45,358 --> 00:58:47,838

I'm just saying that they're

they're very different.

:

00:58:47,868 --> 00:58:51,878

Um, terms of cannabis, um, you

know, there's some similarities,

:

00:58:51,878 --> 00:58:55,948

but I would say that, uh, the

experience is, is very different.

:

00:58:55,948 --> 00:58:58,238

I would say what's similar

in terms of like using.

:

00:58:58,833 --> 00:59:03,733

psilocybin and cannabis, you know,

individually would be, um, a lot

:

00:59:03,733 --> 00:59:06,263

of times with cannabis, you have

a little bit of euphoria and a

:

00:59:06,263 --> 00:59:10,093

lot of people on, psilocybin will

experience that euphoria as well.

:

00:59:10,093 --> 00:59:11,823

And that's a really pleasant thing.

:

00:59:12,163 --> 00:59:16,233

Um, you know, Some people on

cannabis have, uh, issues with

:

00:59:16,233 --> 00:59:17,883

anxiety, like it can drive.

:

00:59:18,188 --> 00:59:20,818

paranoia or increased anxiety.

:

00:59:21,058 --> 00:59:24,098

Um, and that can happen on psilocybin too.

:

00:59:24,158 --> 00:59:29,838

um, usually the, the experience that

anxiety can, can mellow out, you know.

:

00:59:29,998 --> 00:59:32,538

but yeah, it's just a very

different, um, I mean, obviously

:

00:59:32,538 --> 00:59:36,528

they're all different substances,

but, um, yeah, I like them both.

:

00:59:36,608 --> 00:59:40,563

I like cannabis and I like,

Cannabis has been very beneficial

:

00:59:40,563 --> 00:59:44,156

to me in a microdose, um, format.

:

00:59:44,156 --> 00:59:48,626

I mean, yes, I, I take enough

where I do feel it, but, um, I'm

:

00:59:48,626 --> 00:59:51,616

not taking it so that I'm like

high out of my mind or something.

:

00:59:51,646 --> 00:59:55,466

Not that high out of their mind, but

I'm not using cannabis recreationally.

:

00:59:55,466 --> 01:00:00,246

I mostly use it, um, you know,

around 8 PM to just sort of

:

01:00:00,246 --> 01:00:01,726

like ease myself into sleep.

:

01:00:01,726 --> 01:00:05,726

And it really helps me sleep, but

psilocybin would not help me sleep.

:

01:00:05,916 --> 01:00:07,106

That would not do good.

:

01:00:07,781 --> 01:00:08,221

-:

Yeah.

:

01:00:08,791 --> 01:00:13,031

Well, it seems to just from, you know,

my understanding and from hearing you

:

01:00:13,031 --> 01:00:15,911

talk and please correct me, I could

be completely wrong about this, but I

:

01:00:15,921 --> 01:00:22,201

feel like cannabis is almost more in

that class of like, let's numb out a

:

01:00:22,201 --> 01:00:24,851

little bit or chill out and numb out.

:

01:00:24,861 --> 01:00:25,341

Whereas.

:

01:00:25,486 --> 01:00:29,746

Um, so Simon is more like, lock into

what needs to be addressed here.

:

01:00:29,756 --> 01:00:32,686

Like, it's a little more of,

um, of enlightenment maybe it.

:

01:00:33,111 --> 01:00:35,541

-:

Yeah, that's a great way to put it.

:

01:00:35,541 --> 01:00:39,941

I, I would think of it like, if I'm if

I'm taking cannabis, I'm like, Hey, I'm

:

01:00:39,941 --> 01:00:44,881

ready to like, kind of tune out just

relax, you know, feel the numbness of my

:

01:00:44,881 --> 01:00:46,651

fingers and toes and things like that.

:

01:00:46,691 --> 01:00:51,091

Um, And then if I were to use psilocybin,

it's like, Hey, we're going to buckle down

:

01:00:51,091 --> 01:00:52,761

and get to work here, lady and work on

:

01:00:52,846 --> 01:00:53,316

-:

Yeah.

:

01:00:53,466 --> 01:00:53,966

Yeah.

:

01:00:54,326 --> 01:00:56,926

Maybe that's why I'm more drawn to it

because that's more of my natural state of

:

01:00:57,256 --> 01:00:57,496

Buckle

:

01:00:57,511 --> 01:00:58,001

-:

I get it.

:

01:00:58,001 --> 01:00:58,351

I mean, I'm

:

01:00:58,361 --> 01:00:58,891

like that too.

:

01:00:58,901 --> 01:00:59,271

I'm like, what are

:

01:00:59,336 --> 01:00:59,666

-:

All right.

:

01:00:59,666 --> 01:00:59,906

Yeah.

:

01:01:01,556 --> 01:01:02,046

To do list.

:

01:01:02,601 --> 01:01:03,341

Oh man.

:

01:01:03,342 --> 01:01:03,361

Okay.

:

01:01:03,361 --> 01:01:03,781

Okay.

:

01:01:03,781 --> 01:01:10,096

So let's dive into, um, The very

female specific aspects of this, you

:

01:01:10,096 --> 01:01:14,270

know, I, I think a good example of

how things can affect the female brain

:

01:01:14,330 --> 01:01:18,050

so drastically differently or like

ambient, like we know now that like

:

01:01:18,050 --> 01:01:19,530

that affects women really differently.

:

01:01:19,530 --> 01:01:22,120

And initially there were like car

accidents women were having and all

:

01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:24,710

these things and people were like, Oh,

women are just bad drivers, whatever.

:

01:01:24,710 --> 01:01:27,060

And then they realized

like, no, no, no, doses.

:

01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:30,043

need to be like half of what

we're recommending for men.

:

01:01:30,132 --> 01:01:32,992

Um, and then that switched

things, you know, a lot.

:

01:01:33,322 --> 01:01:37,367

Um, we can all avoid taking something like

Ambien, but it's a good are different.

:

01:01:37,367 --> 01:01:38,457

They function differently.

:

01:01:38,777 --> 01:01:45,012

Um, And whether we are in size

smaller than men or not, like

:

01:01:45,422 --> 01:01:46,772

we're just a different machine.

:

01:01:47,132 --> 01:01:50,982

Um, have you found that there are

specific differences as far as,

:

01:01:51,032 --> 01:01:56,168

um, you know, how this works on

the female brain versus the male?

:

01:01:57,493 --> 01:01:58,653

Or at least how it

:

01:01:58,933 --> 01:02:00,323

influences the downstream

:

01:02:00,323 --> 01:02:01,053

effects.

:

01:02:01,053 --> 01:02:01,463

Mm

:

01:02:02,723 --> 01:02:03,243

-:

Sure.

:

01:02:03,243 --> 01:02:03,573

Yeah.

:

01:02:03,573 --> 01:02:07,273

So there's some research now that has

come out that I'm really excited about

:

01:02:07,273 --> 01:02:11,893

to suggest that psilocybin does, um,

interact with the menstrual cycle.

:

01:02:11,943 --> 01:02:13,163

And so I'll dive into that.

:

01:02:13,173 --> 01:02:16,893

But, so the thing to note, to back up,

because we didn't talk about this, is that

:

01:02:16,893 --> 01:02:22,603

psilocybin is a tryptamine alkaloid and

it, binds to your serotonin receptors,

:

01:02:22,613 --> 01:02:25,633

and it mimics that it mimics serotonin.

:

01:02:25,633 --> 01:02:28,473

So it mimics that very

important neurotransmitter.

:

01:02:28,473 --> 01:02:32,043

Serotonin is super important for

our not only our mood, but it's

:

01:02:32,043 --> 01:02:35,943

also important for our digestion,

our libido, different things.

:

01:02:36,753 --> 01:02:39,803

So psilocybin is activating

those serotonin receptors.

:

01:02:39,833 --> 01:02:45,773

Um, So diving into that a little further,

what we do know is that estrogen like

:

01:02:45,863 --> 01:02:49,703

likely somehow affects the binding

at the serotonin receptor site.

:

01:02:49,703 --> 01:02:53,013

And so we don't really know all

the details on that yet, but

:

01:02:53,013 --> 01:02:56,403

what we do know is that it likely

affects the menstrual cycle.

:

01:02:56,563 --> 01:02:58,603

And so dig into that a

little bit more deeply.

:

01:02:58,603 --> 01:03:01,473

It may matter where we are in

our menstrual cycles when we are.

:

01:03:01,588 --> 01:03:03,538

when we are, um, macro dosing.

:

01:03:03,538 --> 01:03:08,193

And then in terms of micro dosing, I'll

talk about that as well Um, what we,

:

01:03:08,243 --> 01:03:12,513

what we know is that so our menstrual

cycles, well, I'll dig, I'll dig into

:

01:03:12,513 --> 01:03:16,203

this, um, study that came out first,

then I'll dive into the menstrual cycle.

:

01:03:16,223 --> 01:03:20,133

But some case studies that Johns

Hopkins university has been doing

:

01:03:20,134 --> 01:03:21,943

at their psychedelic center.

:

01:03:21,943 --> 01:03:22,523

Um, Dr.

:

01:03:22,523 --> 01:03:24,153

Natalie Kassian and Dr.

:

01:03:24,163 --> 01:03:27,438

Sasha Kane and Ryan, been prolific

in this, and I'm so excited about

:

01:03:27,438 --> 01:03:28,458

the research that they're doing.

:

01:03:28,458 --> 01:03:31,038

And I know they're going to continue

to study this, but they did some

:

01:03:31,038 --> 01:03:35,648

case studies looking at how are

psychedelics affecting cycle potentially.

:

01:03:35,648 --> 01:03:37,998

And there are three things

that kind of have cropped up.

:

01:03:38,208 --> 01:03:42,628

One is that, um, and they focused

on psilocybin to a certain extent.

:

01:03:42,638 --> 01:03:46,098

So one is that it's possible

that psilocybin may make your

:

01:03:46,098 --> 01:03:47,368

period come a little early.

:

01:03:47,898 --> 01:03:48,908

earlier than expected.

:

01:03:49,228 --> 01:03:51,858

It may also re regulate your

menstrual cycle if you've

:

01:03:51,858 --> 01:03:53,728

had a time of irregularity.

:

01:03:53,728 --> 01:03:57,109

So, um, you know, a lot of conditions

like premenstrual dysphoric

:

01:03:57,139 --> 01:04:01,449

disorder, polycystic ovary ovary

syndrome, and then can disrupt

:

01:04:01,449 --> 01:04:02,819

the menstrual cycle quite a bit.

:

01:04:03,109 --> 01:04:05,089

And so you may, and so can stress.

:

01:04:05,119 --> 01:04:07,389

And so, you know, there, there

might be a time where you've had an

:

01:04:07,409 --> 01:04:11,159

absence of a period or you've, your

period's just been really erratic.

:

01:04:11,159 --> 01:04:15,379

Well, it seems like psilocybin may be

able to reregulate The menstrual cycle.

:

01:04:15,389 --> 01:04:19,288

The other thing is that it may bring

back a menstrual cycle after a time

:

01:04:19,339 --> 01:04:23,809

of irregular, of, of an So I'm not

talking about in menopause, but in

:

01:04:23,809 --> 01:04:27,269

your reproductive years, there've

been, you know, many conditions can

:

01:04:27,269 --> 01:04:30,788

cause an absence of a period or a

lot of weight loss, all of that.

:

01:04:30,788 --> 01:04:31,399

can cause that.

:

01:04:31,399 --> 01:04:35,779

And so that might bring your menstrual had

a time of, of of where it's been absent.

:

01:04:36,399 --> 01:04:37,909

So why would this occur?

:

01:04:37,909 --> 01:04:41,657

Um, again, we need more research on those

specific things, but the research is

:

01:04:41,677 --> 01:04:45,290

starting and I'm excited about that, uh,

because it may have a lot of ramifications

:

01:04:45,290 --> 01:04:50,190

for, I mean, and benefits, I should

say, for, um, these conditions that do

:

01:04:50,210 --> 01:04:53,830

interact with the menstrual cycle, plus

maybe fertility even, we don't know.

:

01:04:53,980 --> 01:04:55,620

We just need to need to study that more.

:

01:04:56,005 --> 01:05:01,035

But the menstrual cycle occurs called

the hypothalamic pituitary gonadal axis.

:

01:05:01,045 --> 01:05:05,045

So when we are, um, dealing with

our menstrual cycle, you know, we

:

01:05:05,045 --> 01:05:09,525

have the the follicular phase, then

ovulation, then the luteal phase,

:

01:05:09,525 --> 01:05:10,675

and then you would get your period.

:

01:05:10,975 --> 01:05:14,625

And the reason that happens is

because the brain and the ovaries

:

01:05:14,625 --> 01:05:16,215

are communicating with each other.

:

01:05:16,215 --> 01:05:20,105

And when one hormone kicks off, it tells

another hormone what to do and so forth.

:

01:05:20,105 --> 01:05:22,835

And this all occurs

along this feedback loop.

:

01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:26,710

of the menstrual cycle, and then

we also have another axis in our

:

01:05:26,710 --> 01:05:28,230

bodies, and everyone has this.

:

01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:31,130

It's called the hypothalamic

pituitary axis, and that is very

:

01:05:31,130 --> 01:05:32,930

concerned with our stress response.

:

01:05:33,020 --> 01:05:36,516

And, and so, you know, when we

take psilocybin, we are activating

:

01:05:37,626 --> 01:05:42,496

that, uh, the HPA axis, the

hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis.

:

01:05:42,696 --> 01:05:45,350

But you can tell by their

names that these axes overlap.

:

01:05:45,350 --> 01:05:47,760

So we've got the hypothalamus

and the pituitary gland, they're

:

01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:50,355

overlapping with the Um, the H.

:

01:05:50,355 --> 01:05:50,535

P.

:

01:05:50,535 --> 01:05:50,825

G.

:

01:05:50,825 --> 01:05:51,815

Axis and the H.

:

01:05:51,815 --> 01:05:52,055

P.

:

01:05:52,055 --> 01:05:52,275

A.

:

01:05:52,275 --> 01:05:52,745

Axis.

:

01:05:52,745 --> 01:05:55,165

They overlap and we know

that one affects the other.

:

01:05:55,165 --> 01:05:58,495

We already know this from just

living as women in our lives.

:

01:05:58,495 --> 01:06:01,715

We know if we're stressed out, that

could impact periods and when we

:

01:06:01,715 --> 01:06:04,765

get our periods that can certainly

make us more stressed, right?

:

01:06:05,095 --> 01:06:08,335

So that we know from from our

experiences, plus from scientific

:

01:06:08,375 --> 01:06:09,545

literature that they overlap.

:

01:06:09,555 --> 01:06:13,185

So it's not a stretch to assume

that one axes would affect

:

01:06:13,215 --> 01:06:15,055

the other and likely they do.

:

01:06:15,810 --> 01:06:20,990

So how do you manage that with figuring

out should you, in your cycle, uh, do

:

01:06:20,990 --> 01:06:23,000

a deeper journey, like a macrodose?

:

01:06:23,260 --> 01:06:28,120

So, um, Indigenous wisdom practices,

you would not be allowed to engage in

:

01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:31,830

ceremony if you were on your period,

and that's just part of their rules,

:

01:06:31,990 --> 01:06:35,790

and that's likely for and when I

Indigenous wisdom expert, she also

:

01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:40,960

said that it's best, um, to if you're

if you're planning to do a macro dose,

:

01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:43,900

do that closer ovulation rather than

when you get closer to your period.

:

01:06:44,170 --> 01:06:47,870

And that simply has to do

with, um, the energy that's

:

01:06:47,870 --> 01:06:49,640

available to us in our bodies.

:

01:06:49,650 --> 01:06:53,440

And I'm talking about like, like the

way that we metabolize and insulin that

:

01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:55,620

changes as we get closer to our periods.

:

01:06:55,640 --> 01:07:01,695

And so if you are, um, close to your

period and trying to do a journey, Um, a

:

01:07:01,695 --> 01:07:06,615

macro dose can feel very energy depleting

for the body and just temporarily,

:

01:07:06,815 --> 01:07:10,675

but you know, you're already energy

depleted as you're in that late luteal

:

01:07:10,685 --> 01:07:12,465

phase getting closer to your period.

:

01:07:12,835 --> 01:07:16,605

And so another thing to consider is

a lot of people fast before a dose.

:

01:07:16,645 --> 01:07:19,725

Um, and that might just be like the

hours leading up to the macro dose,

:

01:07:19,825 --> 01:07:23,995

or it could be like, maybe you're

you're doing a dietary change for

:

01:07:24,035 --> 01:07:27,555

several days and you're fasting may

be a part of that leading up to it.

:

01:07:27,965 --> 01:07:30,065

You know, There are just different

practices surrounding it.

:

01:07:30,889 --> 01:07:35,099

It's very hard to fast in

that late luteal phase.

:

01:07:35,379 --> 01:07:38,999

Um, But during, as we're closer to

ovulation, we have much more energy

:

01:07:38,999 --> 01:07:40,559

available to our, in our bodies.

:

01:07:40,559 --> 01:07:43,814

And this all makes sense from a

scientific metabolic health get

:

01:07:43,844 --> 01:07:47,954

insulin resistant in the luteal phase

because our bodies are sending all the

:

01:07:48,354 --> 01:07:51,514

The um glucose to the womb, right?

:

01:07:51,574 --> 01:07:55,944

And so, um, It we just have more

and we're less insulin resistant.

:

01:07:55,944 --> 01:07:59,274

We have more energy in our bodies

during that ovulation time.

:

01:07:59,284 --> 01:08:02,604

So that's the recommendation on

macro dosing is to try not to

:

01:08:02,604 --> 01:08:04,064

do it too close to your period.

:

01:08:04,604 --> 01:08:09,784

And then in terms of micro dosing, my

indigenous wisdom expert recommended to,

:

01:08:10,094 --> 01:08:13,394

if you're thinking about micro dosing

to see how that affects your menstrual

:

01:08:13,394 --> 01:08:18,194

cycle, and many people are trying this

for various conditions, um, that to do

:

01:08:18,194 --> 01:08:23,974

that for three months, like follow a

specific protocol, like the Fadiman stack.

:

01:08:24,174 --> 01:08:27,413

Follow that for three months

and track your symptoms.

:

01:08:27,424 --> 01:08:30,513

So like, you know, take a journal

and mark down if you're having

:

01:08:30,523 --> 01:08:32,122

changes in your menstrual cycle.

:

01:08:32,443 --> 01:08:36,202

And that will kind of inform you, um,

three months later, if you want to switch

:

01:08:36,202 --> 01:08:40,323

them out, switch up the protocol, if

you want to stop completely, or if it,

:

01:08:40,353 --> 01:08:43,643

if you realize that it is working with

you and you want to continue with it, it

:

01:08:43,663 --> 01:08:48,372

takes about three months to really see

effects menstrual cycle with micro dosing.

:

01:08:48,383 --> 01:08:49,683

So just to keep that in mind.

:

01:08:49,993 --> 01:08:50,363

-:

Yeah.

:

01:08:50,363 --> 01:08:52,023

That's that's great information.

:

01:08:52,053 --> 01:08:52,363

I.

:

01:08:52,363 --> 01:08:52,483

Yeah.

:

01:08:53,252 --> 01:08:56,582

Curious to see more of the research on

that as well, too, because I know, you

:

01:08:56,582 --> 01:08:58,292

know, a lot of women are realizing.

:

01:08:58,848 --> 01:09:02,238

At a certain point in their lives, like,

hey, I don't want to be on birth control

:

01:09:02,238 --> 01:09:08,077

anymore, you know, whether or not they

want to get pregnant and they really to

:

01:09:08,118 --> 01:09:13,818

re regulate their natural cycle because

they've been, you know, not having a real

:

01:09:13,818 --> 01:09:17,108

cycle for decades, potentially, right?

:

01:09:17,108 --> 01:09:19,548

And they want to kind of re

regulate that and sort of.

:

01:09:19,898 --> 01:09:22,558

Get to the point where they can get a

baseline on what's happening with their

:

01:09:22,558 --> 01:09:28,684

hormones Which you can't do when you're

on any kind of you know birth control or

:

01:09:29,084 --> 01:09:29,884

hormonal treatment

:

01:09:30,913 --> 01:09:32,874

So that could be a really interesting

:

01:09:32,874 --> 01:09:33,493

tool for that

:

01:09:34,014 --> 01:09:34,974

-:

I think so too.

:

01:09:34,984 --> 01:09:36,834

And yeah, I'm with you on that.

:

01:09:36,844 --> 01:09:40,995

Like I um, I was, I had a blood clot and

it was actually caught in my arm and it

:

01:09:40,995 --> 01:09:43,115

was actually caused by birth control.

:

01:09:43,115 --> 01:09:48,395

It's a, It's a rare risk

factor for having a blood clot.

:

01:09:48,425 --> 01:09:53,015

And so after that, I was no longer

allowed to be on birth control at all.

:

01:09:53,295 --> 01:09:57,195

But birth control was helping me

for a while with wasn't a perfect

:

01:09:57,485 --> 01:10:00,150

but it was helping to a then I

was like, what am I gonna do?

:

01:10:00,190 --> 01:10:00,520

know?

:

01:10:00,940 --> 01:10:05,423

And so, you know, I wondered

if, um, that if I, had I had a

:

01:10:05,423 --> 01:10:08,684

hysterectomy eventually, but, um,

which is not a cure for endometriosis.

:

01:10:08,684 --> 01:10:09,645

I'm not trying to say that.

:

01:10:09,705 --> 01:10:13,485

But, um, but I, you know, leading

up to that, I was really, really

:

01:10:13,485 --> 01:10:17,415

struggling with so much pain after

not being able to take birth control.

:

01:10:17,415 --> 01:10:22,635

And I'm wondering if I had had access to

psilocybin then if I uh, or if I had known

:

01:10:22,635 --> 01:10:24,675

about it or known about the benefits of

:

01:10:24,675 --> 01:10:25,005

what that

:

01:10:25,100 --> 01:10:26,210

-:

Right, man.

:

01:10:26,230 --> 01:10:29,470

Wouldn't it be wonderful if people could

get more access to this and not have to

:

01:10:29,470 --> 01:10:31,059

go through that unnecessary suffering?

:

01:10:31,430 --> 01:10:34,800

And I think the clotting is a

more common thing than we realize.

:

01:10:34,830 --> 01:10:39,470

I mean, you're one of probably,

well, at least two women who I know,

:

01:10:39,480 --> 01:10:43,200

one of my close girlfriends had

thrombosis that traveled to her.

:

01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:45,460

Long, you know, it, it was almost fatal.

:

01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:47,120

It was really really scary.

:

01:10:47,130 --> 01:10:49,375

And, um, this is just a personal trainer.

:

01:10:49,375 --> 01:10:50,735

I mean, extremely fit person.

:

01:10:51,125 --> 01:10:53,040

Um, And it was the

:

01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:53,490

birth control.

:

01:10:55,305 --> 01:10:56,415

-:

I mean, that was the thing for me.

:

01:10:56,415 --> 01:10:58,315

Like I, I'm exerciser.

:

01:10:58,315 --> 01:11:02,285

I love fitness and, um, I'm

super healthy for the most part.

:

01:11:02,315 --> 01:11:05,305

And, uh, so when I, and I've

never smoked in my life.

:

01:11:05,305 --> 01:11:07,355

And so presented with that, it was.

:

01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:09,270

It was very, I was surprised.

:

01:11:09,270 --> 01:11:11,870

I was like, how could I possibly

have a blood blood clot?

:

01:11:11,870 --> 01:11:13,910

And actually doctors weren't

sure at first either.

:

01:11:13,910 --> 01:11:15,410

They were like, what is going here?

:

01:11:15,410 --> 01:11:16,720

And so, yeah.

:

01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:20,260

And, and to your point, I do think

it's more common than we think.

:

01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:23,850

Um, I ended up writing an article

about this for health line, about

:

01:11:23,850 --> 01:11:27,160

my personal experience and like the

risk factors for that and everything.

:

01:11:27,550 --> 01:11:30,963

And I can't tell you

how many messages I get.

:

01:11:31,083 --> 01:11:34,923

Per year from women who've

had the same issue crop up.

:

01:11:35,283 --> 01:11:38,043

And they're they're call, they're

reaching out to me on like Facebook

:

01:11:38,043 --> 01:11:42,093

Messenger or dms and Instagram, which

I'm totally open to, but they're asking

:

01:11:42,093 --> 01:11:43,983

me for medical advice and a doctor.

:

01:11:44,283 --> 01:11:47,583

And it's because they're not adequate

information from their doctors.

:

01:11:47,588 --> 01:11:51,634

And the the crazy thing too is

that, um, a lot, sometimes people.

:

01:11:52,003 --> 01:11:55,083

Reach me initially just to sort of

commiserate over this experience.

:

01:11:55,103 --> 01:11:58,753

But the other thing that I get from

people is, um, they message me and

:

01:11:58,753 --> 01:12:01,113

they're like, Oh, you know, cause

immediately if you have a blood

:

01:12:01,113 --> 01:12:02,163

clot, they're on a blood thinner.

:

01:12:02,163 --> 01:12:02,493

Right?

:

01:12:02,923 --> 01:12:05,093

Well, as women, we get periods, right?

:

01:12:05,143 --> 01:12:07,433

I'm depending on where you are

in your age, you know, but.

:

01:12:08,098 --> 01:12:11,228

If you get a period on a

blood thinner, it is like,

:

01:12:11,278 --> 01:12:12,978

Oh my God, am I hemorrhaging?

:

01:12:13,028 --> 01:12:13,368

Am I dying?

:

01:12:14,318 --> 01:12:16,648

And so it, and they don't

warn you about this.

:

01:12:16,648 --> 01:12:20,308

And there's research about it that,

um, that it's like 75 percent of

:

01:12:20,308 --> 01:12:22,998

women who take a blood thinner

will have a horrendous period.

:

01:12:22,998 --> 01:12:26,318

And it is like, it looks like you've

been slaughtered in your bathroom.

:

01:12:26,708 --> 01:12:29,077

And so they reach out to me and

they're like, am I hemorrhaging?

:

01:12:29,077 --> 01:12:30,378

Do I need to go to the hospital?

:

01:12:30,378 --> 01:12:33,418

And I nearly needed an iron

infusion because of it.

:

01:12:33,418 --> 01:12:33,588

It was.

:

01:12:33,603 --> 01:12:36,573

So bad, you know, and I need, I

know I needed to be on that blood

:

01:12:36,613 --> 01:12:39,403

thinner, but no one about that.

:

01:12:39,653 --> 01:12:40,553

-:

so common.

:

01:12:41,783 --> 01:12:42,803

It's so common.

:

01:12:43,263 --> 01:12:50,923

it's just unbelievable to me little the

mainstream medical world understands about

:

01:12:50,923 --> 01:12:51,523

women's bodies.

:

01:12:52,443 --> 01:12:53,073

And how all these

:

01:12:53,573 --> 01:12:55,293

-:

And I'm not, I'm not against

:

01:12:55,293 --> 01:12:56,243

the mainstream medical

:

01:12:56,473 --> 01:12:56,952

-:

no.

:

01:12:57,003 --> 01:12:57,873

-:

love science and

:

01:12:57,913 --> 01:12:58,603

-:

but we have a long way

:

01:12:58,613 --> 01:12:59,603

-:

you know, and I Yeah.

:

01:12:59,653 --> 01:13:00,483

We have a long way to go.

:

01:13:00,503 --> 01:13:00,713

Yes.

:

01:13:01,243 --> 01:13:05,915

-:

Um, yeah, so menopause, or perimenopause

:

01:13:05,985 --> 01:13:10,515

because that's another, I think,

poorly understood stage of life.

:

01:13:10,965 --> 01:13:16,595

And I think that we, as women, Mostly

your horror stories about this, right?

:

01:13:16,595 --> 01:13:18,845

We hear like, Oh God,

wait till in menopause.

:

01:13:18,845 --> 01:13:19,445

It's horrible.

:

01:13:19,445 --> 01:13:24,265

And they're going to be having hot sweats

and, um, hot flashes and night sweats,

:

01:13:24,275 --> 01:13:25,675

and you're not gonna be able to sleep.

:

01:13:25,684 --> 01:13:26,425

Like, just wait.

:

01:13:26,465 --> 01:13:28,945

I had a woman say this to me

like a matter of months ago.

:

01:13:28,985 --> 01:13:29,975

She's like, Oh, just

:

01:13:29,975 --> 01:13:30,315

wait.

:

01:13:31,015 --> 01:13:32,280

And it's Okay.

:

01:13:32,290 --> 01:13:34,790

Well, first of all, not every

woman has that experience,

:

01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:40,330

but second of all, I don't think that

we have to come into this in this state

:

01:13:40,330 --> 01:13:43,300

of mind of there's nothing I can do.

:

01:13:43,340 --> 01:13:49,090

Um, I'm just a slave to my

genetic predisposition, et cetera.

:

01:13:49,410 --> 01:13:55,040

Um, So I want to know how this can be

used as a tool or how it potentially.

:

01:13:55,275 --> 01:14:00,705

You know, can affect things in that

perimenopausal and menopausal stage,

:

01:14:00,715 --> 01:14:04,565

because obviously our hormones are in

a very different state post menopause.

:

01:14:04,615 --> 01:14:08,469

This is after, technically after

your period has stopped completely

:

01:14:08,469 --> 01:14:10,089

for a full calendar year.

:

01:14:10,489 --> 01:14:13,809

Um, on that, but that's the

generally recognized diagnosis.

:

01:14:14,159 --> 01:14:19,059

Um, And, you know, what

looks different there?

:

01:14:19,059 --> 01:14:23,309

Because I know, like, for example,

from a nutrition perspective, women

:

01:14:23,309 --> 01:14:29,039

can Often do things like fasting more

in a way that men can when they're

:

01:14:29,039 --> 01:14:34,109

post menopausal while it, whereas when

they're still having cycles, it can look

:

01:14:34,119 --> 01:14:38,219

very different and they need to go

about it very differently because it

:

01:14:39,039 --> 01:14:41,189

You know, it's a different situation.

:

01:14:41,209 --> 01:14:46,789

So talk to us about in this kind of

context, because many of my listeners

:

01:14:46,829 --> 01:14:49,849

that perimenopausal state of life.

:

01:14:50,239 --> 01:14:52,139

Um, And many of them

:

01:14:52,139 --> 01:14:52,779

are also

:

01:14:53,099 --> 01:14:53,259

postmenopausal.

:

01:14:54,144 --> 01:14:54,954

-:

Absolutely.

:

01:14:54,954 --> 01:14:55,193

Yeah.

:

01:14:55,193 --> 01:14:58,324

So this is, um, something I love

talking about menopause because I'm

:

01:14:58,324 --> 01:15:00,254

actually in perimenopause right now.

:

01:15:00,254 --> 01:15:03,294

I actually don't know where I am in my

menopause trajectory because I don't,

:

01:15:03,374 --> 01:15:07,029

I had a hysterectomy, so I don't have a

period and it's like, Am I in menopause?

:

01:15:07,029 --> 01:15:07,549

Am I not?

:

01:15:07,568 --> 01:15:08,229

What's going on?

:

01:15:08,229 --> 01:15:12,629

You know, but yeah, that time to that,

to the actual menopause, when you've

:

01:15:12,629 --> 01:15:16,759

had an absence of a period for a year,

um, that time leading up to that,

:

01:15:16,759 --> 01:15:19,039

which can last decade is perimenopause.

:

01:15:19,079 --> 01:15:22,959

And that's when we tend to get some of

these symptoms like hot flashes, um,

:

01:15:22,969 --> 01:15:26,739

potentially weight gain, depression can

crop up even for people who've never had

:

01:15:26,739 --> 01:15:32,129

depression before, um, a change in libido,

all of things can happen in perimenopause.

:

01:15:32,524 --> 01:15:35,504

And you know, you made a really great

point that we need to reframe the way that

:

01:15:35,504 --> 01:15:39,864

we, we talk about menopause and we think

about it because yes, it's this, it can

:

01:15:39,864 --> 01:15:43,994

be, we can have a lot of symptoms crop

up and people look at it a lot of dread.

:

01:15:44,284 --> 01:15:48,264

But what if we reframed that as

this concept of like, we're trying,

:

01:15:48,304 --> 01:15:51,514

we're, we're making a transition in

life, we're entering a new chapter.

:

01:15:51,514 --> 01:15:52,364

And what if it weren't?

:

01:15:52,589 --> 01:15:53,459

this bad thing?

:

01:15:53,489 --> 01:15:55,309

we thought about it as

something beautiful?

:

01:15:55,639 --> 01:15:58,519

And so my indigenous wisdom expert,

she kind of brought that up and she,

:

01:15:58,568 --> 01:16:02,909

she said, psilocybin or mushrooms

themselves, mushrooms are, um, and you

:

01:16:02,909 --> 01:16:07,549

know, fun, fungi out there are great

like decomposers and they literally

:

01:16:07,549 --> 01:16:09,549

transition matter into something else.

:

01:16:09,818 --> 01:16:12,899

And that is also something that we

can think about with our bodies is

:

01:16:12,909 --> 01:16:14,289

with menopause is that we are just.

:

01:16:14,769 --> 01:16:19,488

We're going through this beautiful

metamorphosis, perhaps, so that's one

:

01:16:19,488 --> 01:16:23,168

thing I wanted to share, but, um, I

do have some some actual that I think

:

01:16:23,168 --> 01:16:27,798

that psilocybin can help with, so one

thing to consider is that when people

:

01:16:27,798 --> 01:16:31,198

enter enter perimenopause, and if that

depression again, it doesn't happen for

:

01:16:31,198 --> 01:16:34,608

everyone, but it can happen, especially,

even for people who've never had it

:

01:16:34,608 --> 01:16:38,263

before, um, um, so, You'll go to your

doctor, and the first thing the doctor's

:

01:16:38,263 --> 01:16:42,313

going to do is prescribe you a selective

serotonin reuptake inhibitor, which

:

01:16:42,313 --> 01:16:47,623

is an antidepressant, commonly called

an SS rri, or an SSNRI with selective

:

01:16:47,623 --> 01:16:49,513

norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor.

:

01:16:49,903 --> 01:16:52,633

And so you might be put on

one of those and there's

:

01:16:52,638 --> 01:16:53,923

nothing wrong with those drugs.

:

01:16:53,923 --> 01:16:55,303

I appreciate that they're out there.

:

01:16:55,303 --> 01:16:58,093

They've helped many, many people,

including myself and the previous.

:

01:16:58,353 --> 01:16:59,113

previous years.

:

01:16:59,113 --> 01:17:02,273

I'm no longer on them now, but, and

I don't want anyone, I don't want to

:

01:17:02,273 --> 01:17:05,543

encourage anyone to go off of their

medication if it's working for them

:

01:17:05,543 --> 01:17:07,153

and if this is the right thing for you.

:

01:17:07,173 --> 01:17:11,133

But I do have, I do take issue with

the medical community just to that

:

01:17:11,163 --> 01:17:15,043

automatically and slapping it on

a woman in there in perimenopause

:

01:17:15,063 --> 01:17:19,083

because, um, SSRIs have side effects.

:

01:17:19,113 --> 01:17:23,243

And one of those side effects,

is low libido, or it can be.

:

01:17:23,243 --> 01:17:26,683

It doesn't happen to everyone, but it

can happen, and also cause weight gain.

:

01:17:26,683 --> 01:17:29,983

So now you're going into menopause,

you've got depression, they give

:

01:17:29,983 --> 01:17:33,873

you the pill, um, the SSRI, you're

going to take every day, and it's

:

01:17:33,873 --> 01:17:36,157

going to exacerbate symptoms, right?

:

01:17:36,168 --> 01:17:38,698

So I have, I do have a

real problem with that.

:

01:17:39,077 --> 01:17:44,447

And, um, what what we know about SSRIs

too, is not only do they blunt your, well,

:

01:17:44,447 --> 01:17:45,657

they, they, well, they blunt your mood.

:

01:17:45,847 --> 01:17:46,747

That's how they work.

:

01:17:46,767 --> 01:17:48,416

And that's what the aim is.

:

01:17:48,697 --> 01:17:51,467

But not only do they blunt your

lows, they also blunt your highs.

:

01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:57,030

So now you're going into perimenopause,

you've got depression and you're,

:

01:17:57,040 --> 01:17:58,120

you're struggling with like just.

:

01:17:58,385 --> 01:18:01,255

other things in midlife like

taking care of your parents, taking

:

01:18:01,255 --> 01:18:03,005

care of your doing your career.

:

01:18:03,127 --> 01:18:06,597

And now you can't even lean

into all those joys as much.

:

01:18:06,607 --> 01:18:10,217

You know, I, I struggle with people

just giving women these SSRIs.

:

01:18:10,797 --> 01:18:11,077

Yeah.

:

01:18:11,517 --> 01:18:15,597

And so, um, what we do know

about, uh, about psilocybin is

:

01:18:15,597 --> 01:18:17,097

that it does not blunt mood.

:

01:18:17,107 --> 01:18:20,987

So it activates your serotonin

receptors, but it doesn't blunt the mood.

:

01:18:20,987 --> 01:18:24,607

Instead, what what people are

reporting through, and this Is coming

:

01:18:24,607 --> 01:18:27,697

through in scientific research is

that it actually makes feel more

:

01:18:27,697 --> 01:18:29,177

okay with your highs and lows.

:

01:18:29,187 --> 01:18:31,797

So you just exist with

them in a normal way.

:

01:18:32,097 --> 01:18:34,297

And you know, you're

not blunting that mood.

:

01:18:34,317 --> 01:18:36,847

So I love that as a potential.

:

01:18:37,087 --> 01:18:39,787

The other thing to consider is that

with an SSRI, you have to take it.

:

01:18:39,955 --> 01:18:42,985

Every day for it to work and I've

experience where I've skipped

:

01:18:42,985 --> 01:18:44,665

a pill, you know, in the past.

:

01:18:44,665 --> 01:18:48,025

And then I was like, Oh gosh, I

feel like crap, you know, having

:

01:18:48,025 --> 01:18:49,455

mood swings or something like that.

:

01:18:49,455 --> 01:18:52,315

And so again, no longer have

I've had that experience.

:

01:18:52,400 --> 01:18:55,135

And they're also very

difficult to get off of.

:

01:18:55,425 --> 01:18:58,184

Um, you know, you might take it

for a while while you need it.

:

01:18:58,650 --> 01:19:01,190

And then it's it's really

hard to taper off of them.

:

01:19:01,190 --> 01:19:04,040

I had a horrendous time

getting off of I was on.

:

01:19:04,470 --> 01:19:07,550

And so, you know, again, like

it's, it's one of those things.

:

01:19:07,550 --> 01:19:10,850

It's like, um, again, I'm not

against these medications people,

:

01:19:11,100 --> 01:19:14,790

but and there's another option,

I would try that first, you know?

:

01:19:15,080 --> 01:19:20,380

And so, um, You know, going into the

discussion about libido, so commonly,

:

01:19:20,790 --> 01:19:25,750

um, libido can, can go down, or sexual, I

should say female sexual dysfunction can

:

01:19:25,780 --> 01:19:30,870

increase in that perimenopause time, and

female sexual dysfunction can encompass

:

01:19:30,870 --> 01:19:35,230

so many things, it could be pain with

intercourse, it could be low libido, could

:

01:19:35,230 --> 01:19:40,400

be, um, you know, inability to orgasm,

there are so many facets, you know.

:

01:19:40,460 --> 01:19:41,320

of that.

:

01:19:41,422 --> 01:19:44,272

But again, this can really

crop up in perimenopause.

:

01:19:44,312 --> 01:19:48,272

And so, um, I don't want to be

people blunting their libido by

:

01:19:48,272 --> 01:19:51,662

taking an SSRI if they don't need

to, if there's an alternative option.

:

01:19:51,672 --> 01:19:53,432

So will boost your sex life?

:

01:19:53,482 --> 01:19:55,282

This is something that

I like to talk about.

:

01:19:55,732 --> 01:20:00,532

Um, so, uh, it's not necessarily

going to be this classic aphrodisiac,

:

01:20:00,541 --> 01:20:04,032

like we're thinking of like something

like or oysters or whatever, like.

:

01:20:04,317 --> 01:20:06,907

that people say, it's

not really like that.

:

01:20:06,937 --> 01:20:10,977

Um, But what it may do is it

may boost your confidence.

:

01:20:10,987 --> 01:20:14,247

So if you go off and do a macrodose

on your own, um, maybe you're not

:

01:20:14,247 --> 01:20:16,577

doing it with your partner, you

go off and do that on your own.

:

01:20:16,887 --> 01:20:20,277

It may boost your like confidence

in the bedroom and really like

:

01:20:20,277 --> 01:20:23,827

voicing what you need from your

partner, which is a possibility.

:

01:20:24,227 --> 01:20:27,197

Um, the other, The other thing to

consider is that there are some

:

01:20:27,197 --> 01:20:30,497

things that are protective against

female sexual dysfunction and those.

:

01:20:30,522 --> 01:20:35,212

things are having a positive body image

and having intimate partner communication.

:

01:20:35,452 --> 01:20:38,272

And there's no guarantee that's

going to fix everything, but it

:

01:20:38,272 --> 01:20:41,692

can really help be protective

against female sexual dysfunction.

:

01:20:42,022 --> 01:20:45,502

And we do know through clinical

trials that psilocybin is being

:

01:20:45,502 --> 01:20:46,922

studied for eating disorders.

:

01:20:46,932 --> 01:20:49,692

There are like 11 types of

eating disorders out there.

:

01:20:49,692 --> 01:20:53,162

But we think of one of the most

classic is anorexia nervosa.

:

01:20:53,162 --> 01:20:54,522

And that's the one that it's.

:

01:20:54,652 --> 01:20:56,242

being studied for the most right now.

:

01:20:56,242 --> 01:20:57,932

I think also binge eating disorder.

:

01:20:58,342 --> 01:21:01,872

Um, But we are learning that it

has is having beneficial effects

:

01:21:01,882 --> 01:21:03,422

on these eating disorders.

:

01:21:03,422 --> 01:21:07,122

And that has to do with something

that happens with angular gyrus in the

:

01:21:07,132 --> 01:21:10,152

brain and reducing some rigidity there.

:

01:21:10,242 --> 01:21:14,041

And so, um, I do think psilocybin

can help boost your body image.

:

01:21:14,082 --> 01:21:17,622

And then also, um, I mentioned

intimate partner communication.

:

01:21:17,632 --> 01:21:22,052

There's component of psilocybin

that in the brain that we didn't

:

01:21:22,052 --> 01:21:25,082

quite Get to, but, um, I'll

just briefly explain it here.

:

01:21:25,082 --> 01:21:28,272

There's this concept oceanic

boundlessness and another con, which

:

01:21:28,712 --> 01:21:33,032

this like really beautiful, um,

connectivity that you can experience.

:

01:21:33,352 --> 01:21:36,642

And to, to explain that I have to

go back to the default mode another

:

01:21:36,642 --> 01:21:39,892

concept in psilocy, in, in psychedelics.

:

01:21:39,892 --> 01:21:41,132

It's called ego death.

:

01:21:41,182 --> 01:21:42,492

Um, And that scary.

:

01:21:42,502 --> 01:21:45,092

Like, am I going to completely

lose my sense of self?

:

01:21:45,122 --> 01:21:48,472

And that can happen on a, um, heroic dose.

:

01:21:48,482 --> 01:21:50,242

So like you're going over five grams.

:

01:21:50,602 --> 01:21:54,022

But in most macro doses, you're just

going to have really beneficial effects

:

01:21:54,032 --> 01:21:57,992

of this what's called ego death and

what I mean by that So if you remember

:

01:21:58,012 --> 01:22:03,892

default mode network is is involves your

of self and your ego Um, it's almost like

:

01:22:03,892 --> 01:22:09,353

some of that dissolves and um instead

of being so focused on yourself You feel

:

01:22:09,353 --> 01:22:11,858

this connection to the world around you.

:

01:22:11,868 --> 01:22:16,378

It might be that you just feel, um,

some, some connections to the people

:

01:22:16,378 --> 01:22:19,978

that you know and love, or you might

feel really connected to nature.

:

01:22:19,978 --> 01:22:24,008

You might feel connected to the whole

dang universe, whatever it is, but that's

:

01:22:24,008 --> 01:22:26,888

this concept called oceanic boundlessness.

:

01:22:26,898 --> 01:22:30,868

And I experienced something so

profound during my psilocybin journey.

:

01:22:31,178 --> 01:22:33,208

I'm just going to briefly explain

it, but it was definitely an

:

01:22:33,208 --> 01:22:35,288

element of oceanic boundlessness.

:

01:22:35,288 --> 01:22:39,813

I felt like I was connected to Threads of

light to everyone that I know and love.

:

01:22:39,853 --> 01:22:44,668

And I could actually like feel the love

coming towards me and the love that I was

:

01:22:44,678 --> 01:22:49,038

sending back almost like an electrical

current, you know, and you know, I was

:

01:22:49,038 --> 01:22:52,398

only, I was doing just a two gram dose

profound because a lot of times we feel

:

01:22:52,398 --> 01:22:57,008

like we, we know we have a support can,

uh, uh, you know, um, support system

:

01:22:57,018 --> 01:23:00,258

out there, our friends and family, and

we know they love us and will support

:

01:23:00,258 --> 01:23:00,508

us.

:

01:23:01,373 --> 01:23:06,993

physically feel it is so amazing and

profound and so I was experiencing that

:

01:23:06,993 --> 01:23:11,773

it was an element of oceanic boundlessness

and so I firmly believe that psilocybin

:

01:23:11,773 --> 01:23:15,763

can help facilitate that intimate partner

communication and again that doesn't

:

01:23:15,763 --> 01:23:19,318

mean that you have to like you and your

partner are going to like Hang out in

:

01:23:19,327 --> 01:23:21,118

the bedroom and do shrooms and then get

:

01:23:21,118 --> 01:23:21,808

all funky.

:

01:23:21,818 --> 01:23:21,958

Like,

:

01:23:21,968 --> 01:23:22,208

that's

:

01:23:22,208 --> 01:23:23,028

not what I'm saying.

:

01:23:23,648 --> 01:23:27,538

You can go off and do that on your own

and feel that increased connectivity

:

01:23:28,088 --> 01:23:29,638

without your partner doing anything.

:

01:23:29,638 --> 01:23:30,743

I mean, that's exactly to me.

:

01:23:30,843 --> 01:23:35,763

I don't necessarily have like female

sexual dysfunction, but I, um,

:

01:23:35,763 --> 01:23:39,713

I went off and did, you know, my

macro doses on my own with a guide.

:

01:23:39,733 --> 01:23:42,164

And then I came back and my

husband hadn't done anything.

:

01:23:42,164 --> 01:23:43,884

He was like sitting on

the porch the whole time.

:

01:23:43,884 --> 01:23:48,174

I'm sure, you know, I

felt like I loved him.

:

01:23:48,754 --> 01:23:52,943

Like to infinity, you know, it was

just like this exponential increase

:

01:23:52,964 --> 01:23:54,454

in the love that I have for him.

:

01:23:54,764 --> 01:23:57,474

And it wasn't that, like, we were

having marital problems to begin

:

01:23:57,474 --> 01:23:59,614

with, or that I didn't love him, I do.

:

01:23:59,943 --> 01:24:02,964

But it was just this increase, and

I was like, how did this happen?

:

01:24:02,974 --> 01:24:04,844

He didn't do anything different, you know?

:

01:24:05,214 --> 01:24:09,634

So I think that it can be really

profound in that way as well.

:

01:24:10,374 --> 01:24:14,134

And then I wanted to get back to,

we'd already covered talking about

:

01:24:14,164 --> 01:24:16,224

adverse childhood experiences.

:

01:24:16,534 --> 01:24:21,044

So again, one in six adults has had four

or more adverse childhood experiences,

:

01:24:21,054 --> 01:24:25,273

and those adverse childhood experiences

can exacerbate menopause symptoms.

:

01:24:25,273 --> 01:24:26,124

We know this.

:

01:24:26,584 --> 01:24:29,184

And so, especially if

you've had four or more.

:

01:24:29,464 --> 01:24:33,724

And so, now that we're learning that

psilocybin can help with adverse

:

01:24:33,724 --> 01:24:38,809

childhood experiences, help reduce that

psychological response, I think that it

:

01:24:38,839 --> 01:24:44,439

can help with menopause symptoms as well

by reducing that psychological response to

:

01:24:44,439 --> 01:24:46,818

our traumas that we've had in our lives.

:

01:24:46,869 --> 01:24:46,999

So

:

01:24:47,154 --> 01:24:47,794

-:

so powerful.

:

01:24:48,424 --> 01:24:48,964

Yeah.

:

01:24:48,984 --> 01:24:49,724

I love it.

:

01:24:49,784 --> 01:24:50,264

I love it.

:

01:24:50,264 --> 01:24:55,044

And I think, thinking back to to the

rebus that you mentioned, that relaxed

:

01:24:55,044 --> 01:24:59,334

beliefs under psychedelics, I think

that's huge too, when we're talking about.

:

01:24:59,773 --> 01:25:03,054

Our libido and sex life because

I don't know a single woman

:

01:25:03,054 --> 01:25:05,314

who's like super stressed out

and it's like, yeah Let's like

:

01:25:05,574 --> 01:25:09,324

get it on I mean There's probably

a few of us that like maybe that's

:

01:25:09,474 --> 01:25:11,943

our you know release and so we're

maybe more motivated in that

:

01:25:11,943 --> 01:25:13,324

direction when we're super stressed

:

01:25:14,704 --> 01:25:19,014

But I would say that's probably the

minority of women like typically You

:

01:25:19,014 --> 01:25:23,324

know, if we're all up in our head

and stressed out, like that doesn't

:

01:25:23,324 --> 01:25:24,034

feel sexy.

:

01:25:25,514 --> 01:25:25,634

So,

:

01:25:25,669 --> 01:25:27,169

-:

No, it Like, yeah, if you're

:

01:25:27,169 --> 01:25:27,879

super stressed, you're

:

01:25:27,879 --> 01:25:28,079

like,

:

01:25:28,214 --> 01:25:28,854

-:

yeah.

:

01:25:28,854 --> 01:25:32,184

So if I'm in a more of a, you know,

parasympathetic nervous system

:

01:25:32,193 --> 01:25:36,314

state, like it's a lot more likely

that we'll be motivated that way.

:

01:25:36,659 --> 01:25:37,049

-:

yes.

:

01:25:37,894 --> 01:25:40,934

-:

Yeah, Yeah, Well, that's really, really

:

01:25:40,934 --> 01:25:43,075

cool and really encouraging, I think, too.

:

01:25:43,145 --> 01:25:45,718

And, you know, I'm a

big root cause person.

:

01:25:45,718 --> 01:25:48,048

It's not like, we can always

identify, like, one root cause

:

01:25:48,048 --> 01:25:50,418

and that's, you know, if you can

address that, it's the magic bullet.

:

01:25:50,458 --> 01:25:51,588

Everything's fixed.

:

01:25:51,848 --> 01:25:54,157

It's usually so multifactorial, right?

:

01:25:54,258 --> 01:25:55,088

Multifaceted.

:

01:25:55,291 --> 01:25:59,627

Um, but really am excited about

this because I, I believe that And

:

01:25:59,627 --> 01:26:02,517

I think that, you know, in the way

that I said before, it can be a

:

01:26:02,517 --> 01:26:06,317

little more of an enlightening option

versus like a numbing out option.

:

01:26:06,916 --> 01:26:12,651

I think it gives us this opportunity to

start to go in and, you know, address

:

01:26:12,661 --> 01:26:17,621

those adverse childhood experiences

that we've had address whatever.

:

01:26:17,921 --> 01:26:18,491

Maybe there.

:

01:26:19,026 --> 01:26:22,629

limiting beliefs, different things that

are going on that are holding us back.

:

01:26:23,327 --> 01:26:26,797

to me, that's the most exciting aspect

of this is that you could really kind of

:

01:26:26,797 --> 01:26:29,247

dive deeper to subconscious level, right?

:

01:26:29,257 --> 01:26:30,797

Because it's usually

our subconscious mind.

:

01:26:30,797 --> 01:26:36,184

That's the biggest roadblock I find when

it comes to really making the changes

:

01:26:36,184 --> 01:26:40,074

in our lives that we need to make or

taking the steps forward that we need to

:

01:26:40,074 --> 01:26:43,754

make to really bring all of our dreams

and goals into fruition and become like

:

01:26:44,279 --> 01:26:46,599

Absolute best version of ourselves, right?

:

01:26:47,039 --> 01:26:50,179

Fulfill our potential,

which we all want to do.

:

01:26:50,259 --> 01:26:51,349

We all want to do that.

:

01:26:51,359 --> 01:26:54,779

And I think that if we can kind of

remove all the roadblocks that stand in

:

01:26:54,779 --> 01:27:00,489

the way of that, and this is one tool

for doing that, and it just opens up so

:

01:27:00,489 --> 01:27:05,327

many possibilities by helping us kind

of root out like, Oh, what are these

:

01:27:05,358 --> 01:27:07,570

hidden things that are stopping me?

:

01:27:07,799 --> 01:27:11,199

I love the idea too, that you

have to kind of, if you're going

:

01:27:11,199 --> 01:27:12,609

to do this in a macro dose.

:

01:27:13,589 --> 01:27:18,919

Manner, you have to create space for

that space for yourself because it is

:

01:27:19,479 --> 01:27:22,019

like going and getting a treatment and

:

01:27:22,409 --> 01:27:24,629

you're going to feel, you know,

maybe wiped out the next day.

:

01:27:24,629 --> 01:27:30,802

Like, you have to allow your body

and your mind to process this

:

01:27:30,822 --> 01:27:33,087

and then do the integration work.

:

01:27:33,097 --> 01:27:37,297

And that's what I want to talk about next

too, is, um, you mentioned integration.

:

01:27:37,307 --> 01:27:40,767

So, you know, this isn't something

that you're going to take and like

:

01:27:40,907 --> 01:27:42,957

magically everything's going to be.

:

01:27:43,282 --> 01:27:45,022

Fixed for you the next day,

:

01:27:45,032 --> 01:27:45,522

right?

:

01:27:45,522 --> 01:27:49,162

Yeah.

:

01:27:49,842 --> 01:27:52,452

-:

So yes, like all of these things do

:

01:27:52,462 --> 01:27:56,122

happen in your And then, you know,

that can have very beneficial effects.

:

01:27:56,142 --> 01:28:00,332

And there are certainly instances where,

yes, people have used psilocybin and

:

01:28:00,332 --> 01:28:03,912

then they automatically change something

about themselves or learn a new insight.

:

01:28:03,942 --> 01:28:06,392

That's, That's great, but

that's it typically works.

:

01:28:06,392 --> 01:28:06,977

You, okay.

:

01:28:06,977 --> 01:28:09,187

Typically have to put in work yourself.

:

01:28:09,217 --> 01:28:14,827

And so, um, you know, after my macro

dose, I was, you know, sitting there and

:

01:28:14,827 --> 01:28:18,027

journaling and writing just kind of like

rapid fire, writing down any thought I

:

01:28:18,137 --> 01:28:20,407

had about my journey and what did I learn?

:

01:28:20,859 --> 01:28:24,789

Um, and then over time, of course, I was

writing the book and my first chapter.

:

01:28:24,939 --> 01:28:31,568

Um, And so I wrote that

over and over again.

:

01:28:31,568 --> 01:28:33,199

I was really thinking

about these insights.

:

01:28:33,209 --> 01:28:37,045

So I was naturally doing integration

just by writing about my experience.

:

01:28:37,055 --> 01:28:38,135

So that's one way.

:

01:28:38,745 --> 01:28:42,125

But again, there's all these beautiful

communities out there that do, um,

:

01:28:42,135 --> 01:28:45,519

like integration circles and you can

find them on zoom or you can do them in

:

01:28:45,519 --> 01:28:48,849

person in your communities, depending

on where you live and things like that.

:

01:28:48,859 --> 01:28:54,209

But, um, You know, those are really

beneficial to because you are usually

:

01:28:54,209 --> 01:28:57,459

communicating with other people

in the circle who've had similar

:

01:28:57,459 --> 01:29:00,809

experiences, meaning that they've

done some type of psychedelic and

:

01:29:00,809 --> 01:29:05,179

they know some of these concepts like

that feeling of oceanic boundlessness.

:

01:29:05,179 --> 01:29:07,939

Because if you start to explain, try

to explain that to someone who's never.

:

01:29:08,209 --> 01:29:10,898

Felt it or known what

you're talking about.

:

01:29:10,898 --> 01:29:13,749

I'm like, I was connected by threads

of light to everyone I know and love.

:

01:29:13,749 --> 01:29:15,789

They're going to think

I'm crazy and woo, right?

:

01:29:15,844 --> 01:29:16,193

-:

Yes.

:

01:29:17,145 --> 01:29:19,845

-:

And, um, and so, you know, it's really

:

01:29:19,845 --> 01:29:22,825

beneficial to be things with other

people who've done that, or just

:

01:29:22,825 --> 01:29:26,835

are like minded about these things

so that they can, um, help you.

:

01:29:26,835 --> 01:29:30,514

And they can help you learn insights that

maybe didn't, that you didn't recognize.

:

01:29:30,514 --> 01:29:32,188

You just talk about your experience.

:

01:29:32,789 --> 01:29:34,839

Um, and then they help help you with that.

:

01:29:34,839 --> 01:29:35,869

And there's some great communities.

:

01:29:35,869 --> 01:29:38,429

I want to mention there's

moms on mushrooms.

:

01:29:38,449 --> 01:29:39,068

It's M O.

:

01:29:39,068 --> 01:29:39,089

M.

:

01:29:39,239 --> 01:29:41,079

that was created by Tracy T.

:

01:29:41,079 --> 01:29:45,199

And it's really just a community of

moms who are, uh, you know, open about

:

01:29:45,199 --> 01:29:48,599

their mushroom use and they're sharing

resources and talking to each other.

:

01:29:48,599 --> 01:29:50,799

There are educational components to it.

:

01:29:50,799 --> 01:29:52,304

There's integration circles.

:

01:29:52,349 --> 01:29:55,004

She's just doing a really great

job of reducing stigma for

:

01:29:55,284 --> 01:29:57,164

parents who might be community.

:

01:29:57,179 --> 01:29:58,529

You know, using magic mushrooms.

:

01:29:58,919 --> 01:30:02,567

And then also, um, there's the Flourish

Academy, which I think is great

:

01:30:02,637 --> 01:30:07,497

and they are doing, um, different

educational components as well.

:

01:30:07,497 --> 01:30:10,184

Um, also recommend

looking up, April Pride.

:

01:30:10,184 --> 01:30:13,675

she has a couple of different

programs that, um, so she can do

:

01:30:14,035 --> 01:30:17,962

some, some work with people who

are, uh, starting to microdose and

:

01:30:17,962 --> 01:30:19,222

just need to gain their footing.

:

01:30:19,222 --> 01:30:21,622

She has a great microdosing

journal out there.

:

01:30:21,982 --> 01:30:25,791

Um, So there are a lot of people out there

that are in this space that are trying to.

:

01:30:26,317 --> 01:30:27,697

foster this community.

:

01:30:27,916 --> 01:30:29,567

So integration can be done that way.

:

01:30:29,577 --> 01:30:32,759

It can also be done with like

an integration therapist.

:

01:30:32,759 --> 01:30:36,549

So there are there are certainly

psychedelic assistant therapists out there

:

01:30:36,759 --> 01:30:41,239

who help, who, who work with people while

they're actually on the psilocybin, like

:

01:30:41,239 --> 01:30:45,039

they're while you're macro dosing, you're

with a psychiatrist or a psychologist,

:

01:30:45,369 --> 01:30:46,829

they're not interfering with your journey.

:

01:30:46,829 --> 01:30:50,159

They're just there to support you

with you afterwards doing integration.

:

01:30:50,439 --> 01:30:53,996

But there are also therapists out

there that just, And so you don't

:

01:30:54,006 --> 01:30:58,780

necessarily have to do the, the, um,

psilocybin with a, with a psychologist.

:

01:30:58,780 --> 01:31:01,450

You might just work with

the therapist afterwards.

:

01:31:01,890 --> 01:31:05,570

Um, and then, you know, again, you

can do a lot of that integration

:

01:31:05,570 --> 01:31:07,610

yourself again by writing or just.

:

01:31:07,785 --> 01:31:12,365

thinking or meditating and really

like remembering what came up for you.

:

01:31:12,615 --> 01:31:14,975

And the beauty of integration

is that it's ongoing.

:

01:31:14,975 --> 01:31:17,145

It's not like you just

do it for the next day.

:

01:31:17,395 --> 01:31:19,295

It's something that you just keep doing.

:

01:31:19,295 --> 01:31:21,715

Like I think about my

macro doses all the time.

:

01:31:21,715 --> 01:31:22,985

And what did I learn during them?

:

01:31:22,985 --> 01:31:25,075

And I continue to gain new insights.

:

01:31:25,075 --> 01:31:29,705

I continue to make behavior changes

for myself based on those insights.

:

01:31:30,025 --> 01:31:34,066

And you know, I spent a, it's been

a year since my big macro dose.

:

01:31:34,066 --> 01:31:36,991

And so I'm continuing

to learn from that very.

:

01:31:38,071 --> 01:31:41,201

One single experience

and it's, it's beautiful.

:

01:31:41,581 --> 01:31:43,651

But again, um, it's not a magic bullet.

:

01:31:43,651 --> 01:31:45,591

You do have to do that integration work.

:

01:31:45,821 --> 01:31:48,621

And that helps you make some

of those behavior changes.

:

01:31:48,631 --> 01:31:51,541

And of course, you have to take

initiative to make those behavior changes.

:

01:31:51,550 --> 01:31:55,971

So if you're trying to stop the online

shopping, you have to consciously

:

01:31:55,981 --> 01:31:59,221

think about that and consciously

behavior changes, but you're,

:

01:31:59,300 --> 01:32:02,141

you might be in a better place to

make after using full assignment.

:

01:32:02,201 --> 01:32:02,441

-:

Yeah.

:

01:32:02,441 --> 01:32:05,751

And that brings me to one concept

that, you know, we've sort of

:

01:32:05,751 --> 01:32:08,141

touched on indirectly, but that's

:

01:32:08,141 --> 01:32:08,751

motivation.

:

01:32:09,005 --> 01:32:13,005

And how this can shift your motivation,

because like you said, you know, where I

:

01:32:13,005 --> 01:32:15,625

would have been maybe having a glass of

wine or two every night, like now it's

:

01:32:15,625 --> 01:32:17,045

like, maybe I have them once a week.

:

01:32:17,075 --> 01:32:22,045

If that, like, I mean, that's a big

shift in one's or your, just your level

:

01:32:22,045 --> 01:32:24,325

of motivation to make the changes.

:

01:32:24,825 --> 01:32:26,715

and that's something that so

many people struggle with.

:

01:32:26,765 --> 01:32:27,895

I think that there's a lot of.

:

01:32:28,500 --> 01:32:32,090

Uh, Misconceptions what motivation is

that we should always feel motivated

:

01:32:32,090 --> 01:32:35,410

and always feel like, you know, Oh,

you know, once I make these changes,

:

01:32:35,450 --> 01:32:38,212

like I'm always going to feel motivated

to eat healthy and hit the the gym.

:

01:32:38,212 --> 01:32:40,552

And it's like, that's just not reality.

:

01:32:40,662 --> 01:32:45,302

Um, but yeah, dive into that just briefly,

because I know we're, we're getting

:

01:32:45,302 --> 01:32:46,772

short on time, but I think that this is a

:

01:32:46,772 --> 01:32:47,522

really important

:

01:32:47,812 --> 01:32:48,632

piece to touch on.

:

01:32:50,187 --> 01:32:52,057

-:

Yeah, think part of it is that, yeah,

:

01:32:52,057 --> 01:32:56,557

you may not feel motivated to make these

changes all the time, but what what may

:

01:32:56,557 --> 01:33:00,187

be a benefit is I was, so I was mentioning

that psilocybin makes you feel more

:

01:33:00,187 --> 01:33:04,057

okay with your highs and lows rather

than sort of like blunting your mood.

:

01:33:04,457 --> 01:33:08,297

And, um, so I think you end up

feeling more okay with just your.

:

01:33:08,467 --> 01:33:11,137

present life, your present state of mind.

:

01:33:11,547 --> 01:33:14,416

And, of times we're, we're, you

know, constantly ruminating about

:

01:33:14,416 --> 01:33:16,177

the past or the future or whatever.

:

01:33:16,177 --> 01:33:20,587

And, you know, that leads us to want

to numb out in way, whether that's

:

01:33:20,597 --> 01:33:25,032

grabbing wine, um, Adding something

to your online cart or, you know,

:

01:33:25,032 --> 01:33:28,832

whatever it is that is that is

getting, that is a roadblock for you.

:

01:33:29,142 --> 01:33:33,662

Um, but if you okay with just

your everyday existence, that

:

01:33:33,702 --> 01:33:36,382

makes you less to, to numb out.

:

01:33:36,422 --> 01:33:41,077

and and when you're not doing the

numbing out, you, you open up other.

:

01:33:41,277 --> 01:33:41,687

-:

Yeah.

:

01:33:44,322 --> 01:33:45,902

-:

And part of that is like, it gives

:

01:33:45,902 --> 01:33:47,791

you a boost in motivation, you know?

:

01:33:47,791 --> 01:33:51,462

So I'll just, I've, I've gotten into

strength training lately and I love it.

:

01:33:51,462 --> 01:33:54,791

And it's such a beneficial thing in

perimenopause, like build that muscle

:

01:33:54,791 --> 01:33:55,482

because it's really

:

01:33:55,622 --> 01:33:59,562

healthy, but it's, it's not like I'm

can't wait to hit the weights today.

:

01:33:59,602 --> 01:34:00,062

You know?

:

01:34:00,132 --> 01:34:01,692

I don't necessarily have that.

:

01:34:02,112 --> 01:34:05,922

I mean, I I do love exercise to a

certain point, but um, but yeah,

:

01:34:05,922 --> 01:34:06,922

there are days where I'm like, eh,

:

01:34:07,552 --> 01:34:09,032

but, you know, I'm tracking.

:

01:34:09,697 --> 01:34:13,987

tracking my progress, like, Oh, I'm

adding more by I'm adding more weights

:

01:34:13,987 --> 01:34:18,137

to my bicep curls, and I get really

excited to see progress in the mirror.

:

01:34:18,537 --> 01:34:22,577

And loving that it's not necessarily

like I'm trying to like reshape my body,

:

01:34:22,577 --> 01:34:24,737

but I love like seeing the muscle form.

:

01:34:24,777 --> 01:34:29,267

And that can help motivate you to

the more progress that you make with

:

01:34:29,277 --> 01:34:31,597

something that increases your motivation.

:

01:34:31,607 --> 01:34:34,687

And when we're doing less

numbing out, that makes us

:

01:34:34,687 --> 01:34:36,307

more available to access that

:

01:34:36,307 --> 01:34:37,077

motivation.

:

01:34:37,121 --> 01:34:37,422

-:

that.

:

01:34:37,462 --> 01:34:37,702

Yeah.

:

01:34:37,702 --> 01:34:39,022

That's really powerful.

:

01:34:39,092 --> 01:34:40,132

It's so powerful.

:

01:34:40,433 --> 01:34:44,633

Um, because I think, yeah, it,

it kind of is enabling more

:

01:34:44,633 --> 01:34:45,452

consistency

:

01:34:47,188 --> 01:34:47,528

-:

Mm hmm.

:

01:34:48,452 --> 01:34:48,493

-:

gets

:

01:34:48,493 --> 01:34:48,763

results.

:

01:34:49,073 --> 01:34:49,383

I mean,

:

01:34:50,643 --> 01:34:51,543

yeah, it.

:

01:34:51,543 --> 01:34:51,853

Love it.

:

01:34:51,883 --> 01:34:52,463

That's awesome.

:

01:34:52,463 --> 01:34:52,753

That's awesome.

:

01:34:52,753 --> 01:34:54,202

Um, so let's.

:

01:34:54,656 --> 01:34:56,706

You mentioned psychedelic

assisted therapy.

:

01:34:56,736 --> 01:34:58,666

I know that this is not legal everywhere.

:

01:34:58,666 --> 01:35:03,012

So, um, and you know, know you're

not a legal expert, but just give

:

01:35:03,032 --> 01:35:06,812

me, give us a little overview, um,

if people are interested in getting

:

01:35:06,812 --> 01:35:09,972

started in this, like, what do they do?

:

01:35:09,972 --> 01:35:10,212

Where do

:

01:35:10,212 --> 01:35:10,732

they go?

:

01:35:10,742 --> 01:35:11,291

How does it

:

01:35:11,392 --> 01:35:11,832

work?

:

01:35:13,572 --> 01:35:14,402

-:

Yeah, of course.

:

01:35:14,422 --> 01:35:19,022

So federally psilocybin is still illegal

and it's a schedule one substance,

:

01:35:19,041 --> 01:35:23,460

meaning it's like considered up there

with like heroin or whatever it's

:

01:35:23,460 --> 01:35:27,180

considered not to have any medical

benefit, you know, which is so outdated.

:

01:35:27,190 --> 01:35:30,230

And I know that the DEA knows

this and they I'm hoping that

:

01:35:30,240 --> 01:35:31,840

it will eventually get changed.

:

01:35:32,353 --> 01:35:35,501

Likely what we'll see is

that MDMA will get changed.

:

01:35:35,501 --> 01:35:35,508

Right.

:

01:35:35,718 --> 01:35:40,218

Uh, Approved by the FDA for psychedelic

assisted therapy, and I would say sometime

:

01:35:40,218 --> 01:35:44,088

in the near future, like sometime this

year, I would think, and then after

:

01:35:44,088 --> 01:35:47,487

that, like, psilocybin will follow

closely behind, and that's simply because

:

01:35:47,528 --> 01:35:51,628

MDMA, we're further along with clinical

trials related to MDMA than we are with

:

01:35:51,628 --> 01:35:56,293

psilocybin, we're in, there's tons of

clinical trials, and, and Um, phase three

:

01:35:56,293 --> 01:36:00,193

clinical trials in the works with two, but

we're just not as far as we are with MDMA,

:

01:36:00,933 --> 01:36:03,753

but going into where, where is it legal?

:

01:36:03,753 --> 01:36:09,103

So, um, it's legal in certain contexts

in, um, let's see, it would be Colorado.

:

01:36:09,593 --> 01:36:12,343

and in, um, Oregon state.

:

01:36:12,373 --> 01:36:13,803

So those are the two states.

:

01:36:13,909 --> 01:36:16,639

And then we've got a couple of,

we've got a few cities out there.

:

01:36:16,639 --> 01:36:17,199

So D.

:

01:36:17,199 --> 01:36:17,669

C.

:

01:36:17,669 --> 01:36:20,612

there's, um, so there's

decriminalization in D.

:

01:36:20,612 --> 01:36:25,333

C., um, Which like police generally

aren't prosecuting anyone with

:

01:36:25,333 --> 01:36:28,553

like a personal amount on them

or, you know, personal usage.

:

01:36:28,615 --> 01:36:30,014

If you were like growing, mass

:

01:36:30,014 --> 01:36:31,295

producing, but it

:

01:36:31,295 --> 01:36:31,895

might be a Different

:

01:36:31,895 --> 01:36:32,264

story.

:

01:36:32,264 --> 01:36:32,335

but,

:

01:36:32,945 --> 01:36:33,785

um, yeah.

:

01:36:34,580 --> 01:36:37,400

copious amounts of shrooms

in your dank closet.

:

01:36:37,440 --> 01:36:37,590

-:

that.

:

01:36:38,880 --> 01:36:39,120

Yeah.

:

01:36:39,210 --> 01:36:41,760

-:

But um, and then there's legalization,

:

01:36:41,800 --> 01:36:45,460

or there's certain elements of

legalization and in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

:

01:36:45,770 --> 01:36:48,790

And then lots of states actually

have legislation in the works.

:

01:36:48,800 --> 01:36:52,520

There, you know, we're going to see

it follow a similar pattern like

:

01:36:52,520 --> 01:36:55,719

we did with cannabis, where we've

had a few states that legalized

:

01:36:55,719 --> 01:36:57,590

it in certain contexts and now.

:

01:36:57,934 --> 01:37:01,469

Almost, uh, like most of, over

half of states have some type

:

01:37:01,469 --> 01:37:02,889

of legalization for cannabis.

:

01:37:02,889 --> 01:37:06,930

It's even more than that, but, um, Uh,

but so we're going to see a pattern

:

01:37:06,940 --> 01:37:11,210

like that happen and then eventually

hopefully psilocybin will be descheduled

:

01:37:11,230 --> 01:37:13,660

is what, what I'm, what I'm hoping to see.

:

01:37:13,753 --> 01:37:17,428

But in terms of like, okay, what if you

don't live in one of these states, does

:

01:37:17,428 --> 01:37:19,398

that mean it's totally off limits to you?

:

01:37:19,788 --> 01:37:23,553

Um, Well, want to encourage you to

break any laws, so but you do you,

:

01:37:24,563 --> 01:37:26,733

and so I, you know, I will tell you.

:

01:37:27,428 --> 01:37:28,978

Well, no, yeah, I want you to be safe.

:

01:37:28,978 --> 01:37:30,407

I don't want you to go

to jail for anything.

:

01:37:30,448 --> 01:37:34,508

Um, But you know, there are under, I

will tell you are underground guides

:

01:37:34,508 --> 01:37:38,848

out there that will help you, they will

meet you where you need to go to do, um,

:

01:37:38,878 --> 01:37:41,458

a civil assignment journey, if that's

something that you're looking to do.

:

01:37:41,498 --> 01:37:46,183

I myself hired an underground

guide and, um, and he was fabulous.

:

01:37:46,202 --> 01:37:48,003

And I, I give his name in the book.

:

01:37:48,013 --> 01:37:48,853

He was amazing.

:

01:37:48,853 --> 01:37:52,573

I trusted him fully and,

And felt very safe with him.

:

01:37:52,583 --> 01:37:55,683

Um, he also brought his mom

with him, which was really cool.

:

01:37:56,173 --> 01:37:59,393

She, she was my trip setter and he

was the guide and it was really great.

:

01:37:59,675 --> 01:38:01,425

Um, but I write about

that fully in the books.

:

01:38:01,425 --> 01:38:05,025

I won't dive into it too much, but,

um, but yeah, there are options.

:

01:38:05,045 --> 01:38:10,425

Plus there are other countries that

um, decriminalization or some form

:

01:38:10,425 --> 01:38:12,855

of legalization that do retreats.

:

01:38:12,895 --> 01:38:15,945

Um, I will caution people that if

you are going on any retreat or

:

01:38:15,945 --> 01:38:19,295

working with an underground guide

or even an above ground therapist.

:

01:38:19,457 --> 01:38:22,097

To do your research on person is there.

:

01:38:22,137 --> 01:38:25,627

Um, and, and then, you know,

like reviews, um, stuff.

:

01:38:25,897 --> 01:38:29,647

You're like, do you want to raise the

issue that there are there are problems

:

01:38:29,647 --> 01:38:34,246

with, um, with sexual assault in the

psychedelic industry, just as they are.

:

01:38:34,257 --> 01:38:37,416

There are problems with sexual

assault in every industry.

:

01:38:37,416 --> 01:38:37,857

Right.

:

01:38:38,257 --> 01:38:41,537

So it's not a surprise that it happens

in the psychedelic industry too.

:

01:38:41,567 --> 01:38:44,907

And if anyone wants to know more

about that, I do write about that

:

01:38:44,937 --> 01:38:48,347

extensively in the book, but there's

also a great podcast out there.

:

01:38:48,627 --> 01:38:51,007

It's called cover story power trip.

:

01:38:51,047 --> 01:38:55,666

And this was put out by New York magazine

and one of the producers and hosts.

:

01:38:55,687 --> 01:38:56,657

of the podcast.

:

01:38:56,657 --> 01:38:57,337

Her name is Dr.

:

01:38:57,337 --> 01:38:57,837

Lily K.

:

01:38:57,837 --> 01:39:00,677

Ross, and she talks about her own

sexual assault in the psychedelic

:

01:39:00,887 --> 01:39:04,217

industry, and she interviews other

people that this has happened to.

:

01:39:04,217 --> 01:39:08,916

And I don't say this to scare people, but

it is like any other industry, and then

:

01:39:08,967 --> 01:39:13,207

where sexual assault happens, plus when

you are on a psychedelic, because of

:

01:39:13,227 --> 01:39:18,382

that Rebus situation, You're extremely

vulnerable and open to suggestibility.

:

01:39:18,402 --> 01:39:21,121

So you with people who honor consent.

:

01:39:21,392 --> 01:39:25,712

And again, I dive extensively into

how do you, how do you honor that?

:

01:39:25,892 --> 01:39:29,102

How is that consent navigated or

how should it be navigated and

:

01:39:29,102 --> 01:39:30,532

what red flags to watch out for?

:

01:39:30,532 --> 01:39:30,742

There's a

:

01:39:30,742 --> 01:39:30,912

whole

:

01:39:31,172 --> 01:39:32,012

-:

Okay, great.

:

01:39:32,222 --> 01:39:34,352

And that leads me to my, my last question.

:

01:39:34,882 --> 01:39:37,182

and the safety of the

actual substance itself.

:

01:39:37,212 --> 01:39:39,434

And, you know, growing

conditions, et cetera.

:

01:39:39,434 --> 01:39:43,753

I mean, I know any kind of mushroom

can uptake all kinds of things like

:

01:39:43,753 --> 01:39:45,663

metals and, and such from the soil.

:

01:39:45,683 --> 01:39:51,616

So, um, as far as people acquiring the

actual, you know, psilocybin itself, what

:

01:39:51,646 --> 01:39:51,996

uh,

:

01:39:52,709 --> 01:39:53,648

-:

yeah, definitely some,

:

01:39:53,679 --> 01:39:55,209

some good considerations.

:

01:39:55,219 --> 01:39:59,811

So there, um, there are, uh, testing

kits that you can buy through, um,

:

01:39:59,851 --> 01:40:01,861

an organization called dance safe.

:

01:40:01,975 --> 01:40:05,025

So I would recommend testing because

you want to make sure that, like,

:

01:40:05,025 --> 01:40:08,705

if you're ordering, um, you know,

psilocybin mushroom capsules,

:

01:40:08,725 --> 01:40:11,289

because a lot of people grind up the

mushroom, and put it in a capsule.

:

01:40:11,289 --> 01:40:13,179

You want to make sure you're not

getting something that you don't want,

:

01:40:13,189 --> 01:40:14,689

like fentanyl or something like that.

:

01:40:15,139 --> 01:40:18,609

Um, you know, I I, I don't know

if that's really occurred, but

:

01:40:18,609 --> 01:40:19,919

you just want to test everything.

:

01:40:19,929 --> 01:40:21,989

Like DanceSafe is this great organization.

:

01:40:21,989 --> 01:40:26,452

They recommend testing all, any substance

that you take like Um, in terms of

:

01:40:26,452 --> 01:40:28,343

like metals and things like that.

:

01:40:28,343 --> 01:40:32,263

So, you know, certainly, um,

That is a concern just as it

:

01:40:32,263 --> 01:40:33,813

is in the cannabis industry.

:

01:40:33,823 --> 01:40:38,013

What I love about the cannabis industry

is that, um, you know, if I'm looking

:

01:40:38,013 --> 01:40:41,043

at a product online at a dispense,

you know, that I'm going to go and

:

01:40:41,043 --> 01:40:44,633

get at a dispensary or something,

the certificate of analysis and see

:

01:40:44,633 --> 01:40:48,193

what the heavy metals are, what, you

know, the levels are of each, um,

:

01:40:48,253 --> 01:40:50,263

cannabinoid that's in the cannabis.

:

01:40:50,273 --> 01:40:51,143

I can learn that.

:

01:40:51,173 --> 01:40:53,862

I hope that we get to a point

where we have some of those

:

01:40:53,862 --> 01:40:55,303

certificate of analysis.

:

01:40:55,653 --> 01:41:02,566

For, um, for mushrooms as well, because

that will help increase safety, but that

:

01:41:02,576 --> 01:41:07,866

all comes with legalization because, you

know, who's, who's encouraging the random

:

01:41:07,866 --> 01:41:12,791

guy growing mushrooms in his closet to put

out a third party lab test, you know, on a

:

01:41:12,791 --> 01:41:14,462

certificate of analysis, right?

:

01:41:15,392 --> 01:41:20,452

So So yes, you do have to be careful about

what you're getting and where you will

:

01:41:20,452 --> 01:41:25,405

find that like if in places where we've

got legalization and they are being the

:

01:41:25,415 --> 01:41:28,684

that's being sold at dispensaries, you

can you can sometimes get that certificate

:

01:41:28,684 --> 01:41:33,105

of analysis already, but it's just

more so in places where we don't have

:

01:41:33,135 --> 01:41:36,860

legalization or decriminalization where

you're not going necessarily find that.

:

01:41:37,380 --> 01:41:41,434

But yeah, is what I recommend for now

in terms of like just Just buying a test

:

01:41:41,434 --> 01:41:46,965

kit, testing everything that you, taking,

whether that is MDMA, um, LSD, cannabis,

:

01:41:46,975 --> 01:41:47,275

whatever

:

01:41:47,355 --> 01:41:47,865

-:

Awesome.

:

01:41:47,934 --> 01:41:51,135

And we'll put those resources in

the show notes for you guys too.

:

01:41:51,145 --> 01:41:52,843

So, Will link to all of that.

:

01:41:53,053 --> 01:41:56,053

So tell us where can people find you?

:

01:41:56,053 --> 01:41:57,643

Where can they get your book?

:

01:41:57,803 --> 01:41:58,633

-:

The book is available

:

01:41:58,633 --> 01:41:59,713

anywhere books are sold.

:

01:41:59,823 --> 01:42:02,793

I always encourage people to support

their local independent bookstore.

:

01:42:02,793 --> 01:42:06,593

That's my favorite, but you can, you

know, buy wherever you get your books.

:

01:42:06,933 --> 01:42:10,293

And then, um, you can find me

on, uh, I'm on, you know, all

:

01:42:10,293 --> 01:42:11,483

the social media channels.

:

01:42:11,523 --> 01:42:12,983

I'm at Jen Chesick.

:

01:42:12,983 --> 01:42:15,448

So that's the at symbol and then J E N.

:

01:42:15,643 --> 01:42:17,893

C H E S A K.

:

01:42:18,143 --> 01:42:22,343

happy to have you follow me and uh, say

hi and feel free to DM me if you have

:

01:42:22,343 --> 01:42:25,253

questions after, you know, if you've

read the book and you've got questions

:

01:42:25,273 --> 01:42:28,112

or you've heard the podcast and you've

got questions, I'm always happy to

:

01:42:28,112 --> 01:42:30,663

answer DMs as best as I, that I can.

:

01:42:30,673 --> 01:42:33,153

I can't necessarily give medical

advice, but I can, you know,

:

01:42:34,452 --> 01:42:34,763

point you

:

01:42:34,763 --> 01:42:35,032

towards

:

01:42:35,032 --> 01:42:35,653

resources.

:

01:42:36,118 --> 01:42:37,327

-:

I love it and i'll put all of that

:

01:42:37,327 --> 01:42:40,718

in the show notes for you as well so

you can find jen Thank you so much.

:

01:42:40,718 --> 01:42:44,487

This has been really fascinating and

super fun And I so appreciate you taking

:

01:42:44,487 --> 01:42:50,318

the time to come and talk to us about

this um, and yeah, I excited to continue

:

01:42:50,318 --> 01:42:55,088

reading your book because it's just like

more interesting to me than any novel.

:

01:42:57,308 --> 01:42:57,968

I love it.

:

01:42:58,258 --> 01:42:59,428

I love And I really appreciate your

:

01:42:59,428 --> 01:42:59,758

work.

:

01:42:59,758 --> 01:43:00,188

So

:

01:43:00,418 --> 01:43:01,487

-:

Thank you so much.

:

01:43:01,487 --> 01:43:01,868

That is So

:

01:43:01,868 --> 01:43:02,308

sweet.

:

01:43:02,378 --> 01:43:03,308

-:

have to have you back one of these

:

01:43:03,308 --> 01:43:04,728

days and we'll we'll do like a

:

01:43:04,728 --> 01:43:05,248

deeper dive

:

01:43:05,248 --> 01:43:06,218

on one of these smaller

:

01:43:06,268 --> 01:43:06,657

-:

Thank you.

:

01:43:06,657 --> 01:43:07,018

I thank you.

:

01:43:07,018 --> 01:43:07,588

for having me

:

01:43:07,657 --> 01:43:08,157

-:

topics.

:

01:43:08,448 --> 01:43:08,808

-:

Yeah,

:

01:43:08,808 --> 01:43:09,668

I would love to.

:

01:43:09,855 --> 01:43:10,195

We could do

:

01:43:10,195 --> 01:43:11,585

like a whole thing on Menopause

:

01:43:12,875 --> 01:43:15,905

Menopause nutrition and

muscle building and all that.

:

01:43:16,264 --> 01:43:16,844

-:

Yes.

:

01:43:16,885 --> 01:43:17,285

Yes.

:

01:43:17,525 --> 01:43:17,875

I love

:

01:43:17,945 --> 01:43:18,415

-:

all right.

:

01:43:18,945 --> 01:43:19,475

-:

All right.

:

01:43:21,148 --> 01:43:21,735

Thanks Jen.

:

01:43:21,745 --> 01:43:23,025

Thanks for joining us, everybody.

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01:43:23,045 --> 01:43:23,865

And we'll see you next time.

About the Podcast

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The Nutrition Edit

About your host

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Jeannie Oliver

Jeannie is a Certified Nutrition Coach, NASM Personal Trainer and classically trained chef. She helps high performing women improve their overall health, optimize their energy and performance, and discover what it's like to feel good in their own skin - all while enjoying delicious food and creating sustainably healthy lifestyles.