Psilocybin for Women with Jennifer Chesak

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Hey there.

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Welcome to the nutrition edit podcast.

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I'm your host, Jeannie Oliver.

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And joining me today is Jennifer

Chesick, the author of the

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psilocybin handbook for women.

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Jennifer is an award winning

freelance scientist and medical

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journalist, editor and fact checker.

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And her work has appeared in

several national publications,

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including the Washington post.

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Chesick earned her Master of Science in

Journalism from Northwest University's

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Medill School of Journalism.

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She currently teaches in the Journalism

and Publishing programs at Belmont

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University, leads various workshops

at the literary non profit The Porch,

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and serves as the managing editor

for the literary magazine Shift.

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I'll add links for all the places that you

can find her in the show notes, but you

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can check out her work at jenniferchesick.

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com or follow her on

socials at Jen Chesick.

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It's spelled J E N C H E S A K.

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Today, we're talking about the use of

psilocybin, which is a psychedelic plant

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medicine and its potential benefits.

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And while psilocybin has potential

benefits for everybody, both men and

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women alike, today we're going to dive

into the specific ways in which it

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can be helpful for us women, including

regulating our stress and trauma

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response, helping with depression

and anxiety, facilitating healing and

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behavior change, and promoting hormone

health in every stage of our lives.

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Psychedelics and psychedelic assisted

therapy are still somewhat controversial,

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but they're a subject that I have been

really curious about and wanting to cover

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for a long time, and I couldn't ask for

a better expert to talk about it with.

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Jen's going to dispel some of

the common myths and fears around

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psilocybin, also known as magic

mushrooms, and she educates us on how

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it can be used safely and effectively.

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I learned a ton in this

episode, and I hope that you'll

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enjoy it as much as I did.

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So now let's jump into my

interview with Jen Chesick.

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. jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

WElcome Jennifer Chesick.

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I'm so excited to have you here.

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Thanks for joining me today.

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

you for having me.

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I'm pleased to be here.

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

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So I'm really excited about your

book and just to dive into this.

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This is such a hot topic right now and

it's something I've been wanting to

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talk with an expert about for a long

time and really take a deep dive into.

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So thank you for joining us.

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I'm really, really looking

forward to this talk.

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Thank you.

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You've come to the right person.

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Absolutely.

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So tell us a little about

yourself and your background.

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Tell us about the book and

why you decided to write it.

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Sure.

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Yeah.

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So I am a science and medical journalist.

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I'm also a fact checker and I'm

an adjunct instructor in the

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journalism and publishing program.

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So I'm just constantly always writing

and dappling in the written word, but

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I really focused on health and science

and wellness and things like that.

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And I have a really strong passion for

women's health, especially because I've

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had a lot of health problems in my life.

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And I've found that oftentimes when you,

when women enter the mainstream medical

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system, they get really frustrated.

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And I'll talk a little bit about

that as we move through the podcast.

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But in terms of The actual book.

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So I've always really been

fascinated by psychedelics as well.

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And then it seemed like a great

opportunity to merge the two

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women's health and psychedelics.

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And one of the reasons that this is so

important to have a book just dedicated

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to the female body is that so, more

women in some cases are actually

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using psychedelics more frequently

than men at some psychedelics.

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And this is, you know, a blanket.

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statement pulled from a a survey,

the global drug survey of: 2020

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I, that came as a surprise to me.

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I was a little surprised that more

women are using some psychedelics

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more frequently than men.

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But when I dug a little deeper,

this didn't surprise me.

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And this really like drove home

the need for this book, but.

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What, what didn't surprise me is that

there's a difference between the way

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men and women tend to use psychedelics.

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So, men tend to use psychedelics a little

bit more recreationally, whereas women

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are turning to psychedelics to self treat.

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And again, this is an overgeneralization,

and not all men are using

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psychedelics just recreationally,

and there's nothing wrong with

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using psychedelics recreationally.

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They're fun!

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But women are turning to psychedelics

to self treat for conditions

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like PTSD, trauma, anxiety.

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Depression, chronic pain issues,

other chronic health conditions.

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And these are the very same

conditions that disproportionately

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affect the female body.

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And also when women go to the

doctor's office, they're gas lit

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for some of these very conditions.

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So endometriosis is a classic example.

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It's a condition that I have.

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And I write about that in

the book, but so it's been a

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problem, a longstanding problem.

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And, but psychedelics, they're looking

for alternative treatments so that.

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They can find relief for

some of these issues.

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And that's why it's really important for

them to have accurate information, safety

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information, any information that is very

specific to the female body, which I think

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we're going to talk about hormones later

and the menstrual cycle and all of that.

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And so wanting to dive into that.

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But one of the things I like to

share with people when I first.

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start talking about how women are

treated in the medical system.

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I like to throw out this timeline.

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So women were largely excluded

from early stage clinical trials

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until about the 1990s, early 1990s.

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And that has had some major ramifications.

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A lot of people don't realize

this, but I give this timeline and

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it kind of gets people fired up.

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Um, so in 1998, men got a drug

for male sexual dysfunction and

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everyone knows what that drug is.

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It's Viagra, right?

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You know, household name, right?

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And at that point in time, the medical

community, let alone anybody that

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a woman might have been sleeping

with, didn't have an accurate

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picture of what the clitoris is.

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So there's all this internal structure to

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Do they now?

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Right.

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

people, the medical community

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at least is starting to get the

picture, but maybe not everyone.

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But that didn't happen until 2005 when

a female urologist dug into the research

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on this and then determined all of

this internal structure to clitoris.

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And that's crazy, that was 2005.

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And

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

That is

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

I know!

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Blows my mind too.

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And then get this, it wasn't

until: 2015

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for female sexual dysfunction.

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That's a 17 year gap from when

dudes got a drug to when women

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got a drug for the same condition.

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Even though, like, sexual dysfunction

affects The male and the female body

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differently, clearly, but because

of different anatomy, but it's

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still a condition and it's the same

condition in the broad scope of it.

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And that's a 17 year gap.

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So the medical community has largely

been treating the female body and the

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male body as the same in research.

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I mean, this is starting to change.

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now, but it's still, it's still

an issue that women's health is

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often put on the back burner.

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And so that is why I feel like it's

so important that if women are turning

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to psychedelics to self treat, which

there's nothing wrong with that

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as long as they're doing it safely

then, they need accurate information.

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So that's what this book is

really all about and all the

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contexts that might apply.

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Awesome.

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Yeah.

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And it's called the

psilocybin handbook for women.

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Sorry.

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I forgot to mention that.

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Well, I'll definitely put that in

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the intro for sure, but I just think

it's, I think it's so brilliant.

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I think it's so exciting.

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Thank you for writing this because, I've

been really interested in brain health

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and metabolism and the work that I do

and things like dementia and Alzheimer's.

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I mean, Alzheimer's, it affects

twice as many Women, as men, we

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now know that our brains function

very differently than men's brains.

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That medications and all these

things affect us so differently

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than they do men's brains.

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And so, yet another reason why

we should take a very specific

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gender focused look at this.

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Mm hmm.

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

In that context, because

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it isn't the same.

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We aren't just little men.

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I heard a doctor, um, no,

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

not little men.

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Dr.

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Lisa Moscone refers to

it as bikini medicine.

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yes,

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

You know, that anything that the bikini

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could cover that that was considered

what differentiated men from women

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and anything beyond that was like,

well, it must just be the same thing.

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

right and that term I use in the book to

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point out that when the medical community

does focus on women's health, like when

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they actually are researching it, they

are focusing just on like the bikini

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aspect, and it's usually related to

reproduction, and like women were not just

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put on this earth to reproduce, you know,

so that's a big frustration on my end.

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

wild.

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So give us a little bit of

the history of psilocybin.

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And I know that this, could be a podcast

in its own, but just a little brief

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overview of kind of the history of it.

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, we know that psychedelics have been used

by indigenous populations for centuries.

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So give us a little nutshell version of

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

of course.

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Yeah.

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So I actually don't know how long it's

been used in indigenous communities.

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I think we're still actually

learning that and digging into that.

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But yeah, psilocybin has a

storied history of being used in

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indigenous communities, indigenous

ceremonies for different purposes.

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And this is so important in the context

of what we're doing with psilocybin

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now, because you know, everyone's

focusing on the newer research on

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psilocybin, but we need to, whenever

we are talking about psilocybin, we

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need to be bringing in indigenous

wisdom because of that long history.

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We think of science as this

process of doing things over and

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over again to reproduce the same

results, but that's exactly what

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indigenous communities have done.

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I mean, yes, it's not in clinical trials

and indigenous communities, but it's.

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still, it's still using a very

scientific process in some regard.

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And so I did interview,

um, this wonderful woman.

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Her name is Michaela de la Mico.

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She goes by mama de la Mico on Instagram,

and she has studied psilocybin in

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the context of, of, um, indigenous

practices, and she's indigenous herself.

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And so she uses those practices

to help women with various things.

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So I pulled her in as an interview

because I don't have that background.

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And I just felt it was really important

to get the right expert for that.

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But in terms of I think it's also

important to understand like how In

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the US, like the mainstream medical

community even got to know psilocybin.

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And so that started when, so originally

this guy named Robert Gordon Wasson,

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he's a JPMorgan and Chase executive.

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This was back in the 1950s.

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He went down to Mexico at some point

and met a woman named Maria Sabina.

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Maria Sabina is an indigenous healer,

or curandero is the appropriate term.

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I don't know if.

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Healer maps is quite up with

that, but I'll go with it for now.

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Anyway so she was, she was,

using psilocybin in ceremonial

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practices and he met up with her.

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And back then, the white

man was not allowed to

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participate in these ceremonies.

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So he lied to her and he said,

I need to do this so I can go

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and find my son who was missing.

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And that was not true at all.

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Her, his son was not missing.

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And but he lied to her, and she finally

let him join a ceremony with the condition

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that he not go and tell anyone where

she lived or who she was by not mention

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her name when he went back to the U.

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S.

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Well, of course, he totally violated

that agreement and came back to the U.

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S.

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and wrote a big article in Life

magazine naming her village.

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naming her.

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So this was a total violation of

that trust that they had built.

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And then all of these people

started flocking to her village.

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So like Walt Disney went there, John

Lennon, a lot of other celebrities.

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And then, of course, just general, the

general population sort of flocking there.

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And, brought a lot of tourist

issues to that community.

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And the community was not liking this

because they were overrun with tourists.

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And, not a great way.

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And so, she ended up being

ostracized from her village.

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Uh, her house was burned down.

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I believe her son was murdered.

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I don't know the details of the

murder or anything like that.

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But but really it's not a great story.

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It's a really, really sad story.

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Uh, and she eventually You know,

passed away, but she lived in

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poverty for the rest of her life

because of this man, what he did.

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And it's really harmful

when we think about that.

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So at that time, then you know,

psychedelics were starting to

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be studied back then for mental

health issues and other contexts.

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But then we had the war on drugs,

and that halted a bunch of research,

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and now we're getting back to it.

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But it's so important to just remember

that origin story because again, it's

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like a violation of women for sure,

and then also Indigenous communities,

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and so it's so important that when we

talk about psilocybin, that we bring

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that Indigenous, uh, culture into it.

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, I agree.

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And kudos to you for having,

for prioritizing that and

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having the awareness to do that.

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Because I think that hopefully by

using this now, the knowledge in a

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way that does honor women and help

people, it honors the memory of.

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Her and these pioneers and people who

were, using it first, who got there first.

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I think we're so arrogant in the West.

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We love to think that

we're the ones that are

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jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah,

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jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

all these things, right?

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Discovering things.

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It was like, no dude,

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: 00:13:37

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

No, dude.

270

: 00:13:38

Yes.

271

: 00:13:39

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

no dude.

272

: 00:13:40

Yeah.

273

: 00:13:40

So, well, okay.

274

: 00:13:42

Yeah.

275

: 00:13:42

That's fascinating.

276

: 00:13:43

And I think too, that there was

that negative sort of stigma or just

277

: 00:13:49

perception of psychedelics as like,

You know, hippies doing LSD and just

278

: 00:13:55

tripping and for recreation only,

and again, not that there's anything

279

: 00:13:59

necessarily wrong with that, but I

think that the war on drugs, that whole

280

: 00:14:02

idea around that really stigmatized it.

281

: 00:14:07

And I think it created a lot of fear.

282

: 00:14:09

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

It did create a lot of fear.

283

: 00:14:10

And there was a lot of

misinformation put out there.

284

: 00:14:13

There was this concept.

285

: 00:14:14

It was really around, a lot of it was

around MDMA or, you know, what we have

286

: 00:14:18

called ecstasy and Molly over the years.

287

: 00:14:20

But there was this idea that

like, everyone was doing Molly.

288

: 00:14:23

We were all gonna go crazy and insane.

289

: 00:14:25

The world was gonna, Essentially blow up

because people are Molly all the time.

290

: 00:14:29

And this just really wasn't happening.

291

: 00:14:31

It was a moral panic, essentially akin

like the satanic panic of the: 1980

292

: 00:14:37

where everyone thought there were all

these dead devil worshipper worshippers

293

: 00:14:40

everywhere and that just wasn't true.

294

: 00:14:42

But then there are all

295

: 00:14:43

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

tapes backwards and

296

: 00:14:44

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

exactly.

297

: 00:14:44

There are all of these other

298

: 00:14:47

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

remember it.

299

: 00:14:48

Well,

300

: 00:14:49

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

exactly.

301

: 00:14:50

Same.

302

: 00:14:50

There's all this other misinformation

out there too, like you're going to

303

: 00:14:53

lose your mind if you do psychedelics,

you're going to jump out a window

304

: 00:14:57

and, uh, none of this is true.

305

: 00:14:59

That's just not how it works, and a

lot of it is perpetuated by film and

306

: 00:15:03

television that inappropriately portrays

what doing a psychedelic is like.

307

: 00:15:07

People see people having bad trips in

film, and movies, and they're like,

308

: 00:15:11

oh gosh, I don't want to be like

that, or that someone's just going

309

: 00:15:14

to go crazy for doing this, and it's

just, that's just not the real case,

310

: 00:15:18

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

sure.

311

: 00:15:18

So when it comes down to that, I

mean, I know that people do sometimes

312

: 00:15:23

have bad trips, um, but what is

the difference between, like, the

313

: 00:15:28

reality that you're talking about

and this sort of Hollywood version

314

: 00:15:33

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Right.

315

: 00:15:34

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

worst case scenario?

316

: 00:15:36

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

317

: 00:15:36

So people do have bad trips and actually

I think the psychedelic community is

318

: 00:15:39

trying to change the language around

that rather than saying a bad trip.

319

: 00:15:43

We want to say a challenging trip

and that can happen where and it

320

: 00:15:47

might not be the whole journey.

321

: 00:15:49

Like you might have the, it starts

out great and then suddenly you

322

: 00:15:52

get some anxiety or fear that

crops up and you're having too

323

: 00:15:55

many visuals and it's overwhelming.

324

: 00:15:57

But there are ways to be

protective against it.

325

: 00:16:00

And and then the other thing I want

to, and I'll share some of those ways,

326

: 00:16:03

but one thing I want to share too is

that it, you know, usually that if

327

: 00:16:08

you do have a slightly bad experience,

it's just like a temporary thing.

328

: 00:16:12

It's it's just a section of your

journey or your trip that might

329

: 00:16:16

be a little bit like, oh, gosh,

I don't want to do this anymore.

330

: 00:16:18

And I had an experience.

331

: 00:16:20

But it was okay in the long run.

332

: 00:16:21

And most people report, even if they

have a challenging experience, this comes

333

: 00:16:26

from survey results and, medical studies

that are in peer reviewed journals, they

334

: 00:16:29

report that it's still one of the most

profound experiences of their lives.

335

: 00:16:33

And I can totally relate to that

because, my journey was in my trip

336

: 00:16:38

experience was really good for the

most part, but I did have like a 10

337

: 00:16:41

minute time span in there where I was

like, I want to unsubscribe from this

338

: 00:16:44

experience and I don't want to be

339

: 00:16:46

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

340

: 00:16:46

I want out.

341

: 00:16:47

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

you're like stuck on the carnival

342

: 00:16:49

ride and but it was a good thing.

343

: 00:16:51

My mind was just showing me what I needed

to know at that moment, cause that's

344

: 00:16:54

how psychedelics work on the brain.

345

: 00:16:56

I know we're going to get into that, but

it was showing me what I needed to know.

346

: 00:16:59

And on the other side of that 10 minute

time span was immense peace and relief.

347

: 00:17:04

And I mean, the most Peace and

euphoria I've ever felt in my life

348

: 00:17:08

was at that other side of that.

349

: 00:17:10

And so I do call it one of the most

profound experiences of my life.

350

: 00:17:14

Now that's not to say that people

don't have really horrible trips

351

: 00:17:16

and they can go really bad.

352

: 00:17:18

Um, but generally you can do a

lot of things to set yourself

353

: 00:17:22

up for a good experience.

354

: 00:17:23

And the context of that in

the psychedelic community, we

355

: 00:17:26

use the terms set and setting.

356

: 00:17:29

So set is your mindset going

into a psychedelic journey.

357

: 00:17:32

And what I mean by that is like, are

you super stressed out or are you

358

: 00:17:36

feeling like, okay, I can do this.

359

: 00:17:38

Do you have you set aside enough

time or do you have like some crazy

360

: 00:17:41

deadline coming up that is the next day?

361

: 00:17:44

And you're worried about that.

362

: 00:17:45

And you've got so many things going

on in your life that you can't really

363

: 00:17:48

take time to actually Do a journey

that's going to set you up, set yourself

364

: 00:17:52

up for a very stressful experience.

365

: 00:17:55

Yeah.

366

: 00:17:55

And then the set, the setting is literally

like what's around your environment,

367

: 00:17:59

what's around you, who's around you.

368

: 00:18:02

And so some of that can be controlled

by you know, finding a safe space or a

369

: 00:18:06

really calming space because some people

react too much to external stimuli.

370

: 00:18:11

So like for me, I would not want

to be on shrooms at a festival.

371

: 00:18:15

Other people are great doing that, but

I know that personally, that's not going

372

: 00:18:19

to set myself up for a good experience.

373

: 00:18:21

I need to be in a calm contained

space for the most part.

374

: 00:18:25

So yeah, there are things like with set

and setting practices that can really set

375

: 00:18:28

you up for the best experience possible.

376

: 00:18:31

And then the other thing

in terms of mindset.

377

: 00:18:33

Instead of setting like this intention

of like, I need to work on this very

378

: 00:18:36

specific thing, uh, which you can do.

379

: 00:18:39

But a lot of people recommend

setting an intention to just

380

: 00:18:43

being open to the experience and

to try to avoid the resistance.

381

: 00:18:47

Cause we do have a tendency to resist

things and that we can't control.

382

: 00:18:52

And there will be elements of your

journey that you can't control.

383

: 00:18:55

And so you have to be just

open to that experience.

384

: 00:18:58

And the more open that you are and the

less resistance that you put up, the

385

: 00:19:01

better your journey will likely be.

386

: 00:19:03

It's just some mini tips, but

there's more on that in the book.

387

: 00:19:06

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, that's, that I think is the

388

: 00:19:09

part that's the most intimidating

for me is, , the, just the loss of

389

: 00:19:13

control or the lack of control that

you would have going through it.

390

: 00:19:16

Uh, which brings me to my next question.

391

: 00:19:19

The difference between micro dosing

And macro dosing, because for that

392

: 00:19:25

very reason, I'm someone that I'm

very open to the idea of micro

393

: 00:19:28

dosing because it's not this, you

know, big thing that's happening.

394

: 00:19:34

or This kind of concentrated

experience, if you will.

395

: 00:19:37

So tell me the difference between

micro dosing and macro dosing and how

396

: 00:19:42

people can kind of maybe determine

which route is best for them.

397

: 00:19:47

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, I think a combination of the

398

: 00:19:48

two are great, but macro dosing is

so micro and macro, if you just nail

399

: 00:19:53

down those terms, micro means like

a very mini, tiny dose and macro

400

: 00:19:58

means you're taking a larger dose.

401

: 00:19:59

So I do list all the different doses in

my book, but I also want to mention that

402

: 00:20:05

there's something called a heroic dose.

403

: 00:20:07

So I'll start with that

because that's the biggest.

404

: 00:20:09

So that's going to be

something like over five grams.

405

: 00:20:11

You're going to be.

406

: 00:20:12

extremely tripping.

407

: 00:20:14

It's not recommended to do

that for your first experience.

408

: 00:20:17

So let's just set that aside for now.

409

: 00:20:19

We're not going to, we're not going

to do a heroic dose right this minute.

410

: 00:20:23

Um, and I

411

: 00:20:23

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

you!

412

: 00:20:24

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

that as someone's first choice.

413

: 00:20:26

Um, then like what we think of like

a classic macro dose is going to

414

: 00:20:30

be, so heroic dose is five grams.

415

: 00:20:32

And that classic macro dose will

be somewhere between like two, 3.

416

: 00:20:38

5, even up to three grams.

417

: 00:20:38

four grams, let's just say between

two and four grams is a macro dose.

418

: 00:20:43

And that is when you are going to have

some of these classic experiences while

419

: 00:20:47

tripping, like where you're going to

see some visuals, some different things

420

: 00:20:51

are going to be happening in your brain.

421

: 00:20:52

And we can talk about that, but you

need, you roughly need about let's just

422

: 00:20:56

say six hours to like get your peak

dose and then come down from that dose.

423

: 00:21:01

So you need.

424

: 00:21:02

time to do that.

425

: 00:21:03

You can't, you're not going

to be able to be working and

426

: 00:21:06

you don't want to be working.

427

: 00:21:08

Um, whereas a micro dose

is like a 10th of a gram.

428

: 00:21:13

So compared to like, well, let's say

a macro dose at three grams, think

429

: 00:21:17

of a micro dose as a tenth of a gram.

430

: 00:21:21

And most people don't really, you don't

have any visuals when you take that.

431

: 00:21:25

You're not going to be seeing like

shapes and, geometric patterns or the

432

: 00:21:30

furniture's not going to be breathing.

433

: 00:21:32

That happened to me in my microdose

where the couch was breathing.

434

: 00:21:34

And I was like, no, you're

not supposed to breathe.

435

: 00:21:36

But the microdose, you're

not going to have that.

436

: 00:21:39

You can drive on a microdose.

437

: 00:21:41

You can go to work.

438

: 00:21:43

And so people use micro dosing,

almost like, taking a pill.

439

: 00:21:47

You know, you take a pill every most

of your medications you take every day.

440

: 00:21:52

Now, most people don't

micro dose every single day.

441

: 00:21:54

There are protocols that you follow.

442

: 00:21:57

And those, I list some of

those protocols in the book.

443

: 00:21:59

There's like the Fadiman

protocol and the Stamets.

444

: 00:22:02

stack.

445

: 00:22:03

And that involves taking a micro

dose for like, certain days of the

446

: 00:22:06

week and then taking off a few days.

447

: 00:22:08

And then eventually you have

like a washout week where you

448

: 00:22:11

don't take anything at all.

449

: 00:22:12

And that's just to prevent, um,

building up a tolerance essentially.

450

: 00:22:16

Plus taking a moment to say, do

I need to continue doing this?

451

: 00:22:19

So micro dosing is something that people

do pretty regularly with in certain

452

: 00:22:23

contexts, following certain patterns.

453

: 00:22:26

And then macro dosing is something

that you're not doing regularly because

454

: 00:22:29

who has six hours on a Saturday to,

to trip and prepare for that and like,

455

: 00:22:35

then come down from that and maybe

have another day of rest after that.

456

: 00:22:39

That's like an ordeal,

you know, in a good way.

457

: 00:22:41

But who has time every weekend to do that?

458

: 00:22:43

So you're typically doing

more of a macro dose.

459

: 00:22:46

Um, Like maybe you do it yearly,

maybe you do it twice a year or maybe

460

: 00:22:51

once a quarter, you know, it's going

to depend on the person and doesn't

461

: 00:22:54

have to be at a specific pattern.

462

: 00:22:56

It's just not something that

you're doing every day because we

463

: 00:22:58

would not be functioning in life.

464

: 00:23:00

We were doing that every day.

465

: 00:23:01

So that's important to understand.

466

: 00:23:03

So people use micro dosing more for

having better focus during the day,

467

: 00:23:09

feeling less anxiety, maybe managing

symptoms of depression, things like that.

468

: 00:23:14

And then people use macro dosing

for as a deeper journey to gain

469

: 00:23:18

insights, learn about themselves.

470

: 00:23:21

And again, we can talk about

all the brain science there.

471

: 00:23:24

And I think that it's so macro

dosing can actually be very lasting,

472

: 00:23:27

And that's why you don't also

need to do it very frequently.

473

: 00:23:30

So if you're battling a mental health

condition, and you're, trying to

474

: 00:23:33

combat depression a macrodose we're

learning through research may last I

475

: 00:23:38

mean, you're not continually tripping,

but the benefits last for, um, like

476

: 00:23:42

up to a year, maybe six months.

477

: 00:23:44

It's going to depend on the person

and what they're dealing with.

478

: 00:23:47

But you don't need to macrodose regularly,

but you may choose to microdose.

479

: 00:23:51

And microdosing can really support your

macro, like in between your macrodose.

480

: 00:23:55

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Interesting.

481

: 00:23:56

Yeah.

482

: 00:23:57

That's okay.

483

: 00:23:58

That's good to know.

484

: 00:23:59

I am always curious too.

485

: 00:24:01

Like if someone does the micro dosing

first, is it less likely that they'll

486

: 00:24:07

have the more challenging experiences

with the macro or not necessarily?

487

: 00:24:10

I mean, does it come

at it from a different,

488

: 00:24:13

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

There's not really any literature

489

: 00:24:15

or research on that in terms of

like, if you micro dose, do you

490

: 00:24:18

have a better macro dose experience?

491

: 00:24:20

Um, I, I personally think people

should do, uh, this is just my opinion.

492

: 00:24:25

I love the idea of somebody doing

a macro dose and then using micro

493

: 00:24:30

dosing to support that experience.

494

: 00:24:32

So there's another term, and we'll

get into this later, but there's

495

: 00:24:35

another term in psychedelics.

496

: 00:24:37

in the psychedelic community

called integration.

497

: 00:24:39

And so integration is really

that process of learning from

498

: 00:24:42

your experience with psilocybin.

499

: 00:24:45

And so, um, when you are, you know,

after you've done your trip or

500

: 00:24:49

your journey, you would you could

talk to a psychedelic assisted

501

: 00:24:52

therapist who does integration work.

502

: 00:24:54

There are integration circle,

like communities out there.

503

: 00:24:57

It's like group therapy, essentially

just talking about your experience.

504

: 00:24:59

experience or you can also

just do that yourself.

505

: 00:25:03

You can journal, which is what I

did for my, most of my integration.

506

: 00:25:06

And that was really

beneficial to me as a writer.

507

: 00:25:09

Um, but yeah, so integration is that

process of learning from that experience.

508

: 00:25:13

And so people then use a micro dosing to

tap back into some of their experiences.

509

: 00:25:19

It's not that you're going to be

tripping, but you might, feel,

510

: 00:25:22

you might think back to your.

511

: 00:25:24

While you're microdosing, you might

think back to your macrodose and then

512

: 00:25:26

gain newer insights as you go along.

513

: 00:25:29

So that's just a way that I think

microdosing can support that macrodose.

514

: 00:25:33

Yes.

515

: 00:25:34

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Fascinating.

516

: 00:25:35

That's cool.

517

: 00:25:35

So one question that

just came to mind too.

518

: 00:25:38

Rewinding a little bit to the

discussion about indigenous use of this.

519

: 00:25:43

I, I think it's really important

too, for people to understand the

520

: 00:25:47

perspective of using this as medicine

versus just a recreational drug.

521

: 00:25:52

Right.

522

: 00:25:53

I think that that can perpetuate

that stigma we were talking about.

523

: 00:25:56

And am I correct in saying that

typically this was used medicinally

524

: 00:26:01

or is used medicinally when.

525

: 00:26:03

You know, with, by indigenous

people versus what we think

526

: 00:26:06

of with like a party drug.

527

: 00:26:08

Like

528

: 00:26:08

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, right.

529

: 00:26:09

So, like, certainly Indigenous communities

do, um, ceremony, and I suppose you could

530

: 00:26:16

think of a ceremony as somewhat of a

party or like a mini festival, but it's

531

: 00:26:20

You know, it's not like we're thinking

about that classic, guy going to a

532

: 00:26:24

festival and being like, I'm on mushrooms.

533

: 00:26:27

You know, it's not like that.

534

: 00:26:28

It's very medicinal.

535

: 00:26:29

Yes.

536

: 00:26:29

People do use in indigenous communities.

537

: 00:26:31

They do use psychedelics medicinally, but

there is a, there can be a recreational

538

: 00:26:36

component for, um, like facilitating

community and connection within you

539

: 00:26:43

know, a tribe, things like that.

540

: 00:26:45

So, so it's a mix of.

541

: 00:26:46

Both.

542

: 00:26:47

But yes, definitely a

major medicinal component.

543

: 00:26:51

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Cool.

544

: 00:26:51

Thanks for clarifying that.

545

: 00:26:52

Yeah.

546

: 00:26:52

I think it's an important distinction.

547

: 00:26:54

So tell us a little bit how psilocybin

actually works and why it can

548

: 00:26:59

be an effective tool for healing

and specifically behavior change.

549

: 00:27:04

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

550

: 00:27:05

So I'll walk through a

few different concepts.

551

: 00:27:06

My favorite is, well, I have

several favorites, but one that

552

: 00:27:09

really helps people understand is

the, it's called the rebus model.

553

: 00:27:13

And this was created by Dr.

554

: 00:27:15

Robin Carhart Harris and Dr.

555

: 00:27:16

Carl J.

556

: 00:27:17

Friston.

557

: 00:27:17

They're prolific, uh, scientific

researchers in the psychedelic space.

558

: 00:27:21

I just like to give credit

where credit is due.

559

: 00:27:23

So people don't think I came

up with it, but so it's rebus.

560

: 00:27:27

And so what these researchers are

essentially saying, they have a great

561

: 00:27:30

analogy for it, but what they're

essentially saying is that so we think

562

: 00:27:33

back to childhood, our minds were super

flexible in terms of we hadn't formed our

563

: 00:27:38

identities yet or about we have, Formed

our beliefs about how the world around us

564

: 00:27:44

operates that comes later in adulthood.

565

: 00:27:46

I mean, of course we start to develop our

identities, especially in adolescence, and

566

: 00:27:51

we learn about the world in adolescence.

567

: 00:27:53

But by the time we're in

adulthood, our minds are have

568

: 00:27:56

become very rigid, which sounds.

569

: 00:27:58

weird, but childhood flexible

and then adulthood very rigid.

570

: 00:28:03

And that's simply because those

belief patterns about ourselves

571

: 00:28:06

become very solidified and locked in

place, and they're hard to change.

572

: 00:28:10

And then same thing with how

the world around us operates.

573

: 00:28:13

It just kind of gets locked in.

574

: 00:28:15

And so this is where sometimes depression

can crop up, eating disorders can crop up.

575

: 00:28:20

And of course, this can happen

in, the teenage years as well.

576

: 00:28:22

But it's just as we grow

older, we get that rigidity.

577

: 00:28:25

Okay.

578

: 00:28:25

And so the analogy that I love is we can

think about our minds when we're in a

579

: 00:28:30

normal state of consciousness as being

super rigid, almost like a frozen pond.

580

: 00:28:35

So if you think of your mind,

it's just like ice, right?

581

: 00:28:37

Now, if you were going to try to take

a new belief, let's say you're trying

582

: 00:28:41

to change, um, a thought pattern

or just a belief about yourself.

583

: 00:28:46

Maybe you have social anxiety and

you're trying to change this idea that

584

: 00:28:50

you're not good in social settings.

585

: 00:28:52

If you were to think of that.

586

: 00:28:53

beliefs as a rock, and you

try to drop it on that frozen

587

: 00:28:57

pond, it doesn't gain entry.

588

: 00:28:58

It just goes thunk, and nothing happens.

589

: 00:29:00

Maybe it cracks the ice a

little bit, but that's it.

590

: 00:29:03

Now, when you're on a psychedelic,

this is where the relaxed beliefs

591

: 00:29:06

under psychedelics comes in, then

we have almost like a thawed pond.

592

: 00:29:09

So now you have water.

593

: 00:29:10

Now you take that rock in the form of

a new belief, or the new belief in the

594

: 00:29:14

form of a rock is what I'm trying to say.

595

: 00:29:15

You drop it in, and it, create it gains

entry and it creates this ripple effect.

596

: 00:29:21

And so now you've gotten a new belief

into your mind and it's going, it's likely

597

: 00:29:26

to stick when you're on the psychedelic.

598

: 00:29:28

And so why does this happen?

599

: 00:29:31

Well, in a normal state of consciousness,

we have almost like this hierarchy of.

600

: 00:29:35

beliefs.

601

: 00:29:35

And so if you think about like a

corporate structure, we can think of

602

: 00:29:39

our beliefs is like this corporation

and you've got your CEOs at the top

603

: 00:29:43

and they're very bossy and domineering.

604

: 00:29:44

And then they don't listen to

any like, employee that's like

605

: 00:29:47

lower on the ladder, right?

606

: 00:29:49

They're like, Oh, those

people don't matter.

607

: 00:29:51

And so we can think of those as like

those beliefs that we really want to,

608

: 00:29:54

we want to add them to our mind, but

our brains will not let us because

609

: 00:29:57

we've got these domineering CEOs.

610

: 00:29:59

Now, when we're on a psychedelic, that

hierarchy just sort of goes away, and so

611

: 00:30:04

that the employees, the beliefs on the

lower end of the ladder, they they get

612

: 00:30:08

a chance to sort of climb up that ladder

and make, make changes in your mind.

613

: 00:30:15

About certain things.

614

: 00:30:16

So again, going back to this idea

of like we had social anxiety or

615

: 00:30:19

we're trying to change that, that

whatever beliefs are kind of rooting

616

: 00:30:22

you in that it's really hard to do

in a normal state of consciousness.

617

: 00:30:26

But with that relaxed beliefs under

psychedelics, it's much easier to

618

: 00:30:29

change when you're on a psychedelic.

619

: 00:30:31

So this is really why Psychedelics

work, especially for changing, making

620

: 00:30:36

behavior change, but also we have this

increased level of neuroplasticity

621

: 00:30:40

after using a psychedelic.

622

: 00:30:42

And so, um, neuroplasticity, if

I were to try to explain that, I

623

: 00:30:46

just say it's like your brain is

sort of blooming and flowering.

624

: 00:30:49

We're growing new dendrites and synapses.

625

: 00:30:52

And so, we can really lean into making

behavior change and implementing behavior

626

: 00:30:57

change after using a psychedelic.

627

: 00:30:59

So if you use psilocybin and you are,

you're, one of your goals is maybe I want

628

: 00:31:04

to quit drinking or I want to drink less.

629

: 00:31:06

This is a great time to start

implementing that behavior change.

630

: 00:31:10

It's not going to happen just

automatically because you did psilocybin.

631

: 00:31:13

You need to lean into you know, now make

some of those behavior changes of like,

632

: 00:31:18

okay, I'm going to try to just have three

drinks a week instead of 10, or whatever

633

: 00:31:21

it is, like just making up a number.

634

: 00:31:23

But you may find that you don't even

want to reach for that the drink anymore.

635

: 00:31:28

It just, but you have to do

some of that work as well.

636

: 00:31:31

The other concept I want to bring up is

called it's called the helioscope effect.

637

: 00:31:36

So what this means is that, so

this researcher, his name is Dr.

638

: 00:31:40

Gregor Hassler and he's at Freiburg

University, I think that's in Germany,

639

: 00:31:44

but he came up with this concept called

the helioscope effect to explain why

640

: 00:31:49

when we go on a psychedelic are we

able to reprocess trauma and deal

641

: 00:31:53

with trauma a little bit better.

642

: 00:31:54

So the issue is that in In normal

states of consciousness, our

643

: 00:31:58

trauma is really triggering.

644

: 00:31:59

We avoid thinking about it.

645

: 00:32:00

We don't want to think about traumatic

events because they trigger us and

646

: 00:32:03

make us feel really uncomfortable.

647

: 00:32:05

Our heart rate rises and we just get

like, Oh, I don't want to deal with this.

648

: 00:32:09

Um, but when you're on a psychedelic, we

have what's called this helioscope effect.

649

: 00:32:13

And a helioscope is an, in

science is an instrument with it.

650

: 00:32:17

Scientists use to look at the sun because

You don't want to be looking at the sun,

651

: 00:32:20

you know, directly and pro tip there.

652

: 00:32:23

But, um, because you'll get burned, right?

653

: 00:32:25

But the same concept

applies to our trauma.

654

: 00:32:27

We don't want to look at our trauma

in a normal state of consciousness all

655

: 00:32:30

the time, because it does freak us out.

656

: 00:32:33

But when you are on a psychedelic, it's

like you have this helioscope instrument.

657

: 00:32:37

It allows you to see your trauma from

a safe distance and through a new lens

658

: 00:32:42

without getting burned, essentially,

and, uh, and then it gives you this.

659

: 00:32:47

new filter to reprocess your trauma

that you wouldn't have access to

660

: 00:32:52

in a normal state of consciousness.

661

: 00:32:54

So that can be really highly beneficial

for people dealing with trauma is

662

: 00:32:57

that beautiful helioscope effect.

663

: 00:33:00

Now, of course, I do want to correlate

this back to our discussion about bad

664

: 00:33:04

or challenging trips, because initially

when your mind is so that, you know,

665

: 00:33:09

when you take a psychedelic, especially

like with psilocybin, it's going to do,

666

: 00:33:14

it's going to work on your brain, on the

things that are in your brain already.

667

: 00:33:18

So it's not giving you new ideas,

unless you're like, trying to, add

668

: 00:33:22

a new idea to your mind, of course.

669

: 00:33:24

But it's working on things that

you need to work on, because our

670

: 00:33:27

subconscious knows What's up in there?

671

: 00:33:29

You know, it's like, hey, you

need to work on this, right?

672

: 00:33:32

So that's what's happening

when you take a psychedelic.

673

: 00:33:34

The mushroom is going to take you

where you need to go the most.

674

: 00:33:37

But that can feel uncomfortable at first

just because like our normal resistance

675

: 00:33:42

in everyday life would be like, Oh,

if someone's going to talk about a

676

: 00:33:46

sexual assault and that's triggering

for you, then you're like nope, nope.

677

: 00:33:51

But on a psychedelic, you, um, you

again, may have that anxiety first

678

: 00:33:57

come up, but if you sit with it and

avoid that resistance, you'll be

679

: 00:34:01

able to hopefully view that trauma

from that safe new lens, you know?

680

: 00:34:05

So I, I just love the helioscope effect

because it just makes so much sense.

681

: 00:34:09

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

It's fascinating.

682

: 00:34:10

And it reminds me, you know,

I, I talked with Nicole field.

683

: 00:34:14

She came on and talked about

somatic stress release work.

684

: 00:34:18

And, we talked about how

the body stores everything.

685

: 00:34:22

People may be familiar with that

book, The Body Keeps the Score.

686

: 00:34:24

I mean, we know now that our experiences

are stored on a physiological level.

687

: 00:34:29

So is that part of what's working

here is that these things that are

688

: 00:34:33

sort of stored in our minds or bodies

somewhere are now coming to the surface?

689

: 00:34:38

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, I think one of the things to

690

: 00:34:39

remember is that if you've had, and I'll

talk about this later too, if you've had

691

: 00:34:43

adverse childhood experiences or what

the scientific community, it calls ACEs.

692

: 00:34:49

So these are anything that could have

happened to you in childhood, like,

693

: 00:34:52

uh, abuse, neglect living through.

694

: 00:34:54

Extreme poverty, systemic racism in your

community, having a violent household,

695

: 00:34:59

parents who were very volatile, a parent

who was incarcerated, severe childhood

696

: 00:35:04

illness, losing a parent, you know,

they, somebody died in your family,

697

: 00:35:08

these are adverse childhood experiences

and it's they're very traumatic and they

698

: 00:35:13

cause, they actually cause changes in

our body to our actual stress response.

699

: 00:35:18

So we have the, uh, you know,

our fight or flight system.

700

: 00:35:21

It messes with that fight or flight

system and changes how we use

701

: 00:35:25

cortisol, how we're using glucose,

insulin, all of these things.

702

: 00:35:28

It permanently changes that.

703

: 00:35:31

And so, yes, that is, those traumas are

stored in your body to a certain degree.

704

: 00:35:36

And when we use psilocybin, if we're,

doing this in a very therapeutic

705

: 00:35:42

context, trying to work on, Stress

or trauma or depression or anxiety.

706

: 00:35:47

It's almost like it can reset that or

it can help reset that stress response

707

: 00:35:53

to a certain degree so that it can

maybe calm that fight or flight system

708

: 00:35:57

down a bit because it's so hyperactive

and people who've experienced trauma

709

: 00:36:02

and, to put this into context, one

in six adults has experienced stress.

710

: 00:36:06

For or more adverse childhood experiences.

711

: 00:36:09

So that's an alarming amount of trauma

that just the world is carrying around.

712

: 00:36:13

And so a lot of us are walking

around with an active, highly

713

: 00:36:18

more activated stress response.

714

: 00:36:20

And It, it's harmful.

715

: 00:36:22

It's all, it's harmful to

our, it's nobody's fault.

716

: 00:36:25

It's just, it's harmful

to our metabolic health.

717

: 00:36:27

Um, so it can change the way that

we, again, process insulin and

718

: 00:36:32

glucose, which can lead to obesity,

it can lead to heart disease.

719

: 00:36:37

High cholesterol, all of.

720

: 00:36:39

factors that are related

to our metabolic health.

721

: 00:36:42

And then, we're going to talk

about menopause later too.

722

: 00:36:44

But the, another thing just to

think about in terms of with the

723

: 00:36:48

female body, when we've had four or

more ACEs, that is likely to give

724

: 00:36:53

us a worsened menopause symptoms.

725

: 00:36:55

So things like hot flashes

and it's because it's all

726

: 00:36:57

tied to that metabolic health.

727

: 00:37:00

So trauma has a very

lasting effect on our lives.

728

: 00:37:03

And it does seem like

psilocybin helps with that.

729

: 00:37:06

We've gotten new research that

has just come out this fall that

730

: 00:37:09

shows that psilocybin does reduce

that psychological response to

731

: 00:37:14

our adverse childhood experiences.

732

: 00:37:15

So I'm planning to write about that

for an article at some point, but

733

: 00:37:18

just wanted to bring that up because

it's so important to think about

734

: 00:37:21

what, how can we work with our trauma?

735

: 00:37:24

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, that's amazing.

736

: 00:37:25

And.

737

: 00:37:25

Having done talk therapy for years,

like, it's great to get things off your

738

: 00:37:28

chest and have someone to talk to, but

it really wasn't until I started seeing

739

: 00:37:32

a therapist who uses somatic modalities

that I felt like, okay, through this

740

: 00:37:38

work, I'm, it's not erasing memories of

bad things that happened, but they just

741

: 00:37:42

don't carry that emotional charge anymore.

742

: 00:37:44

They don't have that

power over me anymore.

743

: 00:37:46

So I think that that's a really cool

thing to dive into, from any with any

744

: 00:37:51

modality, it can be really important

because that's what kind of enables you to

745

: 00:37:56

move forward and grow and change behavior

change, or just be free of the emotional

746

: 00:38:02

burden that those things can put on us.

747

: 00:38:04

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yes,

748

: 00:38:05

absolutely.

749

: 00:38:07

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

750

: 00:38:07

And I really want to dive into the

metabolic health piece of this,

751

: 00:38:11

because that's something that

I'm always yammering on about.

752

: 00:38:14

My listeners and my clients get sick of

it, but I'm always saying, look, if you're

753

: 00:38:17

in a constant state of that, you know,

activated sympathetic nervous system.

754

: 00:38:22

Fight or fight response, like your

body doesn't want to burn fat.

755

: 00:38:26

Your body is going to

conserve real efficiently.

756

: 00:38:29

Like your stress hormones are

going to be elevated all the time.

757

: 00:38:31

Like your cells don't understand the

difference between constant chronic stress

758

: 00:38:36

and continually running from a predator

or continually being in a famine state.

759

: 00:38:42

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Right.

760

: 00:38:42

Yeah.

761

: 00:38:43

When we have a stress response,

like let's say that you're driving

762

: 00:38:48

in your car and you almost get into

a, like a fender bender, right?

763

: 00:38:51

You're, you have that, everyone

knows that surge of adrenaline

764

: 00:38:53

that you get from that moment.

765

: 00:38:55

And there are many other

things to think about.

766

: 00:38:56

And of course, that surge of adrenaline

is there historically to protect us.

767

: 00:39:01

So, back in the day of, caveman

days, there were men running

768

: 00:39:05

from tigers or whatever.

769

: 00:39:07

I don't know what predators were all

out there then, but they were there.

770

: 00:39:10

And so you needed that surge of

adrenaline to power your body.

771

: 00:39:14

And people don't understand

what that is actually doing.

772

: 00:39:17

When you get that cortisol release and

the norepinephrine, it drives glucose

773

: 00:39:23

into your bloodstream so that you have

the energy to run from the threat.

774

: 00:39:27

Right.

775

: 00:39:27

But.

776

: 00:39:28

In our normal states, we, in

everyday life, we aren't under threat

777

: 00:39:32

running from predators generally.

778

: 00:39:34

I mean, maybe sometimes, but

it's there for you to have a good

779

: 00:39:37

reaction in that near fender bender.

780

: 00:39:40

But if we're constantly in that heightened

state of stress and and Feeling like we're

781

: 00:39:45

under threat, which many people who've

experienced trauma constantly feel that

782

: 00:39:49

it's hyper vigilance were hyper aware that

we're like, Oh, we were under threat at

783

: 00:39:53

any moment that's constantly happening.

784

: 00:39:56

You're just getting this constant glucose

dump into your bloodstream and it, you

785

: 00:40:00

know, then that affects insulin release

and and then that can lead to obesity and

786

: 00:40:05

other things with metabolic health too.

787

: 00:40:07

Sorry to take it on a metabolic

health tangent, but I'm also very

788

: 00:40:10

passionate about metabolic health.

789

: 00:40:12

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yes.

790

: 00:40:13

Absolutely.

791

: 00:40:14

I am too.

792

: 00:40:14

And I think that it's so crucial because

again, twice as many women will be

793

: 00:40:18

diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease as men.

794

: 00:40:21

We now know, I mean, they're calling

Alzheimer's disease type three diabetes.

795

: 00:40:24

We know that there is a direct link

now between glucose dysregulation

796

: 00:40:29

and insulin resistance.

797

: 00:40:30

and brain health.

798

: 00:40:31

And it starts in middle age, not old age.

799

: 00:40:34

You know, so most of my

listeners out there are going

800

: 00:40:37

to be in their thirties and up.

801

: 00:40:38

I mean, this is the time to start

paying attention to these things

802

: 00:40:41

and doing this work and it, yes,

nutrition and exercise matter.

803

: 00:40:46

But I think that the emotional

work is even more of a

804

: 00:40:49

foundational piece than that.

805

: 00:40:50

I think that it's, and not

everyone's going to be.

806

: 00:40:52

So I'm not sure if it's something that

you're comfortable doing, you know,

807

: 00:40:54

using psychedelics, but whether that's

one route for you or not, there are

808

: 00:40:58

plenty of other options out there.

809

: 00:40:59

And I think that it's just such a

crucial piece because that stress

810

: 00:41:03

response, especially if it's

an ongoing thing in your body,

811

: 00:41:06

it's going to affect your health

812

: 00:41:07

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yes.

813

: 00:41:08

Yeah.

814

: 00:41:08

In

815

: 00:41:08

the long

816

: 00:41:09

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

in every possible way.

817

: 00:41:11

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

absolutely.

818

: 00:41:12

And, to your point, you were talking

about dementia being, more prevalent

819

: 00:41:16

in women and it really starts to

happen as we get into perimenopause and

820

: 00:41:20

menopause with that estrogen drop that

puts us at risk for dementia processes.

821

: 00:41:25

It changes are the way our body

handles glucose and insulin.

822

: 00:41:30

So it's just this compounding factor

is going through that menopause time.

823

: 00:41:35

It's not that the menopause is bad.

824

: 00:41:37

It's just a natural part of life.

825

: 00:41:39

But we do need to be much more vigilant

about our metabolic health as we get

826

: 00:41:43

into That era of our lives because of

all the risk factors that crop up because

827

: 00:41:47

of the decline in estrogen including

heart disease and one thing I'll take

828

: 00:41:51

it on just this mini tangent But I think

you know heart disease is a problem for

829

: 00:41:56

women But the medic like people don't

really know about that I would say that

830

: 00:42:00

in general people think of like heart

attacks and stroke is happening to men

831

: 00:42:04

more often But it is happening to women.

832

: 00:42:05

It's happening to women in middle age and

so if you've got a heart condition or if

833

: 00:42:09

you've Got anything that's cropping up as

a heart symptom, definitely talk to your

834

: 00:42:13

doctor about it and be persistent about it

because women are dying of heart attacks.

835

: 00:42:18

They are having strokes and we are,

more at risk and the common thing that

836

: 00:42:22

happens is if you go in and you say,

Oh, I'm having heart palpitations.

837

: 00:42:26

What is your doctor going to say?

838

: 00:42:27

Oh, you have anxiety and that

839

: 00:42:29

may not be the case.

840

: 00:42:30

It may just be that you are having

an arrhythmia or something and

841

: 00:42:33

it needs to be taken care of.

842

: 00:42:35

Just wanted to bring that up.

843

: 00:42:37

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

I'm glad that you brought it up.

844

: 00:42:38

That actually happened

to me a couple years ago.

845

: 00:42:40

I was having full blown like, and.

846

: 00:42:43

We've only known recently how

differently symptoms present in women

847

: 00:42:47

for heart attacks they do in men.

848

: 00:42:49

You know, We're used to hearing

about the chest pain, the left arm

849

: 00:42:51

tingling, numbness, That is very

typical for men, whereas women,

850

: 00:42:56

they might feel flu symptoms.

851

: 00:42:57

might feel, you know, like nausea or

sudden fatigue, all of these things.

852

: 00:43:03

And yeah, I had that happen

to me a couple of years ago.

853

: 00:43:06

It was not a heart attack, but thankfully

I had a functional medicine female

854

: 00:43:10

doctor who knew What to look for.

855

: 00:43:13

And I had to go through a

ridiculous battery of tests.

856

: 00:43:16

But yeah, there were some irregularities

going on there and it was really

857

: 00:43:20

lucky that we figured it If we

alone, there could have been a real

858

: 00:43:24

a real problem

859

: 00:43:25

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

860

: 00:43:25

I'm so sorry.

861

: 00:43:27

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Oh, thanks.

862

: 00:43:28

You know, It's I'm grateful it now because

it it was a wake up call for me And I

863

: 00:43:32

was under way too much Not necessarily

because oh my god, my life right now is

864

: 00:43:36

so stressful But like you say my nervous

system was just sort of stuck in this

865

: 00:43:41

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

hmm.

866

: 00:43:41

It can happen.

867

: 00:43:42

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

And I couldn't really shift into that

868

: 00:43:45

parasympathetic place of, you know,

what we call rest and digest where I

869

: 00:43:50

could truly relax and turn off truly

like my body and brain did not feel

870

: 00:43:56

fully safe to do that.

871

: 00:43:57

And so it was a real, it really

rattled me and kind of said, look, you

872

: 00:44:02

might practice what you preach when

it comes to fitness and nutrition,

873

: 00:44:04

but when it comes to your mental

wellbeing and your emotional health.

874

: 00:44:09

Something's

875

: 00:44:09

got to

876

: 00:44:10

give, it's got to shift and I

really, we have to prioritize that.

877

: 00:44:15

And that is something that in all the

work that I do with my clients, I'm

878

: 00:44:18

constantly reiterating, like, look, I

can give you the best tools in the world.

879

: 00:44:22

I can give you the best

diet, the best workout plan.

880

: 00:44:25

You might do it to a T, but if

your emotional you know, emotional,

881

: 00:44:30

spiritual, mental health is suffering,

or you're in this chronic stress Guess

882

: 00:44:36

what?

883

: 00:44:38

You're still gonna

884

: 00:44:38

struggle a

885

: 00:44:39

lot.

886

: 00:44:40

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

It's still going to affect you.

887

: 00:44:41

Of course.

888

: 00:44:42

It's so important.

889

: 00:44:45

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, absolutely.

890

: 00:44:46

Um, you had mentioned to me too we

were talking about, because obviously,

891

: 00:44:51

you know, behavior change is a big

Piece of look if you know, we're

892

: 00:44:55

coming into perimenopause or middle

age and we're needing to make changes

893

: 00:44:59

to our lifestyle behaviors Maybe

we are having to address address.

894

: 00:45:05

Excuse me addictive behaviors be

it alcohol sugar, you know Whatever

895

: 00:45:09

that might be for some people.

896

: 00:45:10

It's exercise

897

: 00:45:11

over exercising Yeah, but you had

mentioned to me that there are

898

: 00:45:15

actual clinical trials that talk

about how psilocybin can help

899

: 00:45:20

with addictive

900

: 00:45:21

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah.

901

: 00:45:22

So there are a few clinical

trials out there going right now.

902

: 00:45:25

Um, And one is for alcohol use disorder.

903

: 00:45:27

And there were actually probably

several clinical trials related

904

: 00:45:30

to alcohol use disorder.

905

: 00:45:31

Others are for opioid use disorder.

906

: 00:45:34

And there's even, there were even studying

psilocybin for, um, smoking cessation.

907

: 00:45:39

So obviously smoking is highly and,

uh, has damaging health effects.

908

: 00:45:43

But what people don't realize is that

the, um, the female body is different

909

: 00:45:47

than the, I mean, the male body.

910

: 00:45:48

In general, the female body is

different than the male body.

911

: 00:45:50

But when it comes to smoking

cessation, for example, we have women

912

: 00:45:53

have different nicotine receptors.

913

: 00:45:55

Like our nicotine receptors are

different than in the male body.

914

: 00:45:58

And if you think about all those smoking

cessation products that um, you know,

915

: 00:46:00

uh, nicotine gum or patches, they

all work on the nicotine receptors.

916

: 00:46:05

And typically, I mean, yes, they can work

for women, but it's, it makes, it's still

917

: 00:46:09

harder for women to quit because of the

difference in the nicotine receptors.

918

: 00:46:13

And a lot of those products.

919

: 00:46:14

don't work adequately for women.

920

: 00:46:17

So I'm really excited that

psilocybin is being studied for that.

921

: 00:46:20

But a that, um, the addiction, I would say

the the literature surrounding addictive

922

: 00:46:25

behaviors and psilocybin, like how can

that help kind of goes back to that rebus.

923

: 00:46:30

model why am I, why am I

addicted to the substance?

924

: 00:46:33

Why am using this?

925

: 00:46:34

Is it is it a behavior

thing that I can change?

926

: 00:46:36

And, you know, by incorporating

new belief systems into your

927

: 00:46:40

mind, can you make those changes?

928

: 00:46:42

So certainly related to that, but

there's also a lot that happens in our

929

: 00:46:46

during, um, you know, using psilocybin,

especially in a therapeutic setting.

930

: 00:46:51

That works on different brain networks.

931

: 00:46:53

we have in our, in our mind or

in our brains, there's something

932

: 00:46:56

called a default mode network.

933

: 00:46:58

And that is a network of brain

regions that work together to

934

: 00:47:02

form like our sense of self.

935

: 00:47:04

It's concerned with our like

memories, anything, if you're

936

: 00:47:07

thinking about the past or the future.

937

: 00:47:09

future your mind's kind of wandering.

938

: 00:47:11

It's very active.

939

: 00:47:12

It also involves our empathy,

including empathy for ourselves,

940

: 00:47:16

but also empathy for others.

941

: 00:47:17

So it's just really

important brain network.

942

: 00:47:20

And so there's a lot happening with

that network when you're on psilocybin

943

: 00:47:25

that can be beneficial for um, it's

it's interesting and I like to explore.

944

: 00:47:29

Explain So, um, again, this is a

brain network of brain regions that

945

: 00:47:32

work together, but when you're on

psilocybin, um, it changes what's

946

: 00:47:36

connected and what's not connected.

947

: 00:47:38

So it's like things that are normally

connected in the default moat network

948

: 00:47:41

will disconnect, and then things

that are normally not will connect.

949

: 00:47:44

So I, I liken it to like thinking about

you've got an outlet in your house and

950

: 00:47:48

we've all Take all the cords out and then

plug them back into different outlets.

951

: 00:47:53

I like to think of it that

way That's what's happening.

952

: 00:47:55

And so there's a lot of stuff that could

be going on with addictive behaviors That

953

: 00:48:00

could be changed on the other side of

it Now, of course your brain goes back

954

: 00:48:04

to normal connectivity once you're off

of psilocybin I don't want people to be

955

: 00:48:07

freaked out that your brain's going to be

all scrambled or something but it it does

956

: 00:48:11

have these beneficial effects in terms

of Again, I'm dealing with some of that

957

: 00:48:16

rigidity that we have in a normal state

of consciousness, getting new beliefs

958

: 00:48:20

in there and then working on patterns

that are really no longer serving you.

959

: 00:48:24

So, you know, if I'm sitting here

drinking three glasses of wine a

960

: 00:48:28

night, that's not healthy for me

and it's not really serving me well.

961

: 00:48:32

I know I want to change it,

but it's hard to change.

962

: 00:48:35

And so I think that some of

that, that relaxed beliefs

963

: 00:48:38

under psychedelics takes effect.

964

: 00:48:40

for these addictive behaviors.

965

: 00:48:41

But people are finding in clinical

trials that it reduces their heavy

966

: 00:48:45

drinking, the number of heavy

drinking days that they have.

967

: 00:48:48

Um, I, I'm a, I'm I'm a classic example.

968

: 00:48:50

I did, um, uh, macro dose over a year

ago and I've dramatically cut back

969

: 00:48:55

on drinking, like, you know, I would

probably be having one or two glasses

970

: 00:48:59

a night of wine and now like, I'll go

like a week without touching it or, you

971

: 00:49:04

know, many days without touching it.

972

: 00:49:06

It's just not something I'm reaching to.

973

: 00:49:08

Constantly, but I've done work on that.

974

: 00:49:10

You know, I focused on like, I drinking?

975

: 00:49:12

What, What am I doing that for?

976

: 00:49:13

know, this isn't great for my liver.

977

: 00:49:16

So I've really

978

: 00:49:18

been

979

: 00:49:19

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Or your hormones or your

980

: 00:49:20

brain.

981

: 00:49:20

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

Yeah, well, it's not great for anything.

982

: 00:49:21

But, um, you know, yeah, I'm

not against wine and It's great.

983

: 00:49:25

But, um, it, it is something that I

think women tend to turn to quite a

984

: 00:49:31

bit, especially middle age when we're

struggling with so many different things.

985

: 00:49:34

We've got our careers.

986

: 00:49:35

We've got, you know, there are

people that have, I don't have

987

: 00:49:37

kids myself, but other people do.

988

: 00:49:39

And, so there's kids, there's

careers And And then something I'm

989

: 00:49:42

dealing with too in my life right

now is caring for aging parents.

990

: 00:49:45

And that's really stressful.

991

: 00:49:46

And if you've got all things going on at

992

: 00:49:48

once,

993

: 00:49:49

jeannieoliver-0jysyqubx_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

So many of us are at that

994

: 00:49:50

stage.

995

: 00:49:50

It's a

996

: 00:49:51

lot.

997

: 00:49:52

jenniferchesak-8q8wampvm_raw-audio_jeannie-oliver-jennifer-chesak_2023-dec-05-0720pm_psilocybin_for wome:

And so we're we're classically going to

998

: 00:49:53

be reaching for things that numb us out.

999

: 00:49:55

And that might be ultra processed foods.

: 1000

00:49:57,556 --> 00:50:00,096

It um, you know, cigarettes.

: 1001

00:50:00,106 --> 00:50:02,046

It might online shopping.

: 1002

00:50:02,076 --> 00:50:05,366

know, it could be anything that you're

using to sort of numb yourself, but

: 1003

00:50:05,366 --> 00:50:09,756

there's so much science coming out now

and research that psilocybin can help

: 1004

00:50:09,756 --> 00:50:11,326

with some, making some of these behavior

: 1005

00:50:13,456 --> 00:50:15,086

-: 0720

You know, we didn't talk about this

: 1006

00:50:15,096 --> 00:50:17,136

previously, but I'm really curious.

: 1007

00:50:17,186 --> 00:50:22,976

So as someone who was recently, like

less than a year ago, diagnosed with

: 1008

00:50:23,006 --> 00:50:28,076

ADHD, and I know it's often, it's more

often diagnosed in women once they

: 1009

00:50:28,196 --> 00:50:31,356

reach perimenopause because the hormonal

changes and the drops in estrogen,

: 1010

00:50:31,366 --> 00:50:33,396

things can exacerbate the symptoms.

: 1011

00:50:33,796 --> 00:50:36,226

Um, for me, I had many of

the symptoms my whole life.

: 1012

00:50:36,226 --> 00:50:39,066

I just didn't realize that

that was going on, but curious.

: 1013

00:50:40,626 --> 00:50:43,856

Psilocybin help at all

with that aspect of it?

: 1014

00:50:43,856 --> 00:50:45,996

And maybe you want to table

that till we get into the

: 1015

00:50:46,356 --> 00:50:48,506

menopause section of the talk

: 1016

00:50:48,516 --> 00:50:49,316

today, but I'm

: 1017

00:50:49,316 --> 00:50:49,956

so curious.

: 1018

00:50:49,986 --> 00:50:50,436

-: 0720

No, I'm.

: 1019

00:50:50,816 --> 00:50:55,086

Happy to talk about ADHD and then

we can get to menopause later.

: 1020

00:50:55,096 --> 00:51:00,016

Um, But yeah, so with ADHD, a lot of

people are using microdosing to help with

: 1021

00:51:00,016 --> 00:51:05,426

that because microdosing is, a lot of

ADHD out there are a stimulant, right?

: 1022

00:51:05,466 --> 00:51:11,586

And so, microdosing, um, psilocybin is, it

does have a stimulant and so it can help

: 1023

00:51:11,671 --> 00:51:13,736

focus, like cutting out all the noise.

: 1024

00:51:14,341 --> 00:51:17,921

Um, and the other thing that, um,

so I have a whole chapter on this.

: 1025

00:51:17,931 --> 00:51:22,701

There's a woman that I interviewed

who had, she has severe ADHD.

: 1026

00:51:22,731 --> 00:51:26,081

And so she said she's not

necessarily using microdosing as

: 1027

00:51:26,081 --> 00:51:30,821

like a tool for that, but she's

done macro doses to help with ADHD.

: 1028

00:51:30,821 --> 00:51:32,397

And one of the things that

she mentioned that was just.

: 1029

00:51:32,712 --> 00:51:36,212

I felt like this was really profound

was if you've, if you've struggled

: 1030

00:51:36,212 --> 00:51:41,556

with ADHD all your life, or I mean,

just really point in time, um, it

: 1031

00:51:41,556 --> 00:51:45,546

can be a little traumatic because,

um, the world expects you to operate

: 1032

00:51:45,556 --> 00:51:47,256

in like a quote unquote normal way.

: 1033

00:51:47,266 --> 00:51:48,226

You're supposed to be organized.

: 1034

00:51:48,226 --> 00:51:51,981

You're supposed to, you know, Have

a schedule or do this and do that.

: 1035

00:51:52,011 --> 00:51:54,321

It's a lot of things to keep of and do.

: 1036

00:51:54,361 --> 00:51:56,891

And the ADHD brain just

does not work that way.

: 1037

00:51:57,221 --> 00:51:59,841

But the the world expects

you to work that way.

: 1038

00:52:00,041 --> 00:52:04,431

And so that can create a lot of

trauma for the individual, especially

: 1039

00:52:04,441 --> 00:52:07,741

children when they have ADHD and all

the adults in their lives are like,

: 1040

00:52:08,011 --> 00:52:11,471

you know, telling them that they're bad

because they're not behaving properly

: 1041

00:52:11,471 --> 00:52:12,991

or whatever is expected of them.

: 1042

00:52:13,261 --> 00:52:13,371

them.

: 1043

00:52:13,701 --> 00:52:17,561

And it's just not feasible for many

people with ADHD to behave certain

: 1044

00:52:17,561 --> 00:52:18,711

world expects them to behave.

: 1045

00:52:18,711 --> 00:52:25,441

So she was using psilocybin to, um, that

or work on that trauma that resulted

: 1046

00:52:25,441 --> 00:52:29,241

from childhood of, you know, where adults

are just expecting her teachers, parents

: 1047

00:52:29,241 --> 00:52:31,021

expecting her to be a certain way.

: 1048

00:52:31,041 --> 00:52:34,981

So I think that's a fascinating

component and I'm hoping researchers

: 1049

00:52:35,011 --> 00:52:37,401

do do some more studying with ADHD.

: 1050

00:52:37,421 --> 00:52:41,025

for psilocybin to see what are

some results that might crop up.

: 1051

00:52:41,677 --> 00:52:44,294

-: 0720

love that because you, and am I correct?

: 1052

00:52:44,304 --> 00:52:49,659

Is, Is it less, I mean, when we're

talking about any pharmaceutical,

: 1053

00:52:49,659 --> 00:52:50,709

there are always downsides.

: 1054

00:52:52,074 --> 00:53:00,354

So for rather be able to use

a plant and, you know, avoid

: 1055

00:53:00,454 --> 00:53:04,614

potential side effects that a drug

or pharmaceutical may have for me.

: 1056

00:53:04,614 --> 00:53:09,414

I mean, for example, like I use a

stimulant ADHD medication as needed.

: 1057

00:53:09,684 --> 00:53:11,964

So I only take it maybe twice a week.

: 1058

00:53:12,004 --> 00:53:15,484

I have a really, really low dose

that happens to work for me.

: 1059

00:53:15,484 --> 00:53:18,186

And, I had to go through a bunch more.

: 1060

00:53:19,322 --> 00:53:22,302

Cardiac tests and things, um,

cardiovascular testing just to

: 1061

00:53:22,302 --> 00:53:24,872

make sure that that was safe for

me to take, even I'd rather I'd

: 1062

00:53:24,872 --> 00:53:26,302

rather not have to take that.

: 1063

00:53:26,742 --> 00:53:31,992

Um, and you know, if I can use something

that doesn't have the potential side

: 1064

00:53:31,992 --> 00:53:36,167

effects or isn't depleting my magnesium or

all these things that this drug could do,

: 1065

00:53:36,394 --> 00:53:37,454

I would much rather take

: 1066

00:53:37,454 --> 00:53:38,014

that route.

: 1067

00:53:38,919 --> 00:53:39,669

-: 0720

Sure.

: 1068

00:53:39,679 --> 00:53:41,299

Yeah, absolutely.

: 1069

00:53:42,064 --> 00:53:43,614

-: 0720

Do we know about potential

: 1070

00:53:43,614 --> 00:53:44,644

side effects or things that,

: 1071

00:53:44,823 --> 00:53:46,113

that psilocybin have?

: 1072

00:53:46,556 --> 00:53:49,406

-: 0720

yeah, so, um, if you're macro dosing,

: 1073

00:53:49,456 --> 00:53:52,816

I mean either macro dosing or micro

dosing, it's important to know

: 1074

00:53:52,816 --> 00:53:56,926

that psilocybin does elevate your

heart rate and your blood pressure.

: 1075

00:53:56,936 --> 00:54:00,076

So it's important that if you have

any heart condition that you do talk

: 1076

00:54:00,076 --> 00:54:02,446

to a medical professional to make

sure that that would be something

: 1077

00:54:02,446 --> 00:54:03,926

that would be for you to do.

: 1078

00:54:04,286 --> 00:54:06,706

Um, And so that's something to consider.

: 1079

00:54:06,706 --> 00:54:09,196

And it, you know, it does have

a bit of that stimulant effect.

: 1080

00:54:09,196 --> 00:54:12,516

And so that's why it might be effective

for some people It's going to be

: 1081

00:54:12,516 --> 00:54:15,578

different person person and the,

level of, their, their experience with

: 1082

00:54:15,578 --> 00:54:17,928

ADHD, it's, it's very individualized.

: 1083

00:54:17,987 --> 00:54:21,237

But, um, but those are the two

side effects to, to consider in

: 1084

00:54:21,237 --> 00:54:24,047

the, you know, short term when

you're actually on the, the drug.

: 1085

00:54:24,108 --> 00:54:29,216

and then in the long term, it's important

to know that, um, uh, some research

: 1086

00:54:29,216 --> 00:54:34,176

is coming out to say that, psilocybin,

if microdosing super regularly, like,

: 1087

00:54:34,446 --> 00:54:37,903

you know, pretty constantly, That,

uh, it's possible that that could

: 1088

00:54:37,903 --> 00:54:39,723

create an arrhythmia with your heart.

: 1089

00:54:39,733 --> 00:54:42,973

And that has to do with the serotonin,

the serotonin pathways that are, that's

: 1090

00:54:42,973 --> 00:54:44,513

happening when you're on psilocybin.

: 1091

00:54:44,893 --> 00:54:48,473

So the, the current like safety

protocol is certainly like

: 1092

00:54:48,583 --> 00:54:50,053

take breaks from microdosing.

: 1093

00:54:50,073 --> 00:54:51,543

Don't do it continuously.

: 1094

00:54:51,563 --> 00:54:52,363

Plus that would.

: 1095

00:54:52,588 --> 00:54:55,398

Create a tolerance for you anyway,

if you're doing that continuously,

: 1096

00:54:55,668 --> 00:54:58,571

make sure you're taking breaks

and just be aware of the issue.

: 1097

00:54:58,581 --> 00:55:01,301

Because of course, we just talked

about heart issues in women.

: 1098

00:55:01,311 --> 00:55:05,121

And, um, you know, you don't want to

exacerbate that, uh, at a time in your

: 1099

00:55:05,121 --> 00:55:06,791

life when you're risk for such a thing.

: 1100

00:55:07,081 --> 00:55:11,561

So, so again, you could potentially

use, um, psilocybin as a micro dosing

: 1101

00:55:11,601 --> 00:55:14,831

tool with ADHD, but you wouldn't,

it wouldn't be something you could

: 1102

00:55:14,831 --> 00:55:17,721

do permanently, like every day,

you know, you'd have to be taking

: 1103

00:55:17,771 --> 00:55:18,131

careful

: 1104

00:55:18,141 --> 00:55:18,721

breaks.

: 1105

00:55:18,722 --> 00:55:18,912

Thanks.

: 1106

00:55:19,411 --> 00:55:20,231

-: 0720

That makes sense.

: 1107

00:55:20,251 --> 00:55:23,361

And you talked a little bit, too, in

our initial conversation about the

: 1108

00:55:23,361 --> 00:55:26,381

timing of it, and because it does

have that stimulant effect that it's

: 1109

00:55:26,611 --> 00:55:28,251

probably better used earlier in the

: 1110

00:55:28,251 --> 00:55:29,221

day so that it doesn't disrupt

: 1111

00:55:29,221 --> 00:55:29,681

sleep.

: 1112

00:55:30,851 --> 00:55:32,721

-: 0720

So just to mention that again, like if you

: 1113

00:55:32,721 --> 00:55:37,848

are planning to macro dose, you know, you

do want to allow like six to eight hours

: 1114

00:55:37,848 --> 00:55:42,348

of time there to, you know, get, you know,

it takes a little for it to activate in

: 1115

00:55:42,348 --> 00:55:46,138

your body, just like as if you were taking

any medication and then, you know, you're

: 1116

00:55:46,138 --> 00:55:48,928

going to hit the peak and then you're

going to time to come down from that.

: 1117

00:55:49,198 --> 00:55:51,158

And it may affect your sleep that night.

: 1118

00:55:51,158 --> 00:55:53,658

So, like if you're going to macro

dose, I would recommend like

: 1119

00:55:53,668 --> 00:55:57,598

setting aside a weekend and, You

know, starting early on a Saturday.

: 1120

00:55:57,598 --> 00:55:59,988

It sounds like, hey, I'm

gonna take some mushrooms

: 1121

00:55:59,988 --> 00:56:00,828

at nine o'clock

: 1122

00:56:00,828 --> 00:56:01,008

in the

: 1123

00:56:01,008 --> 00:56:01,428

morning.

: 1124

00:56:01,428 --> 00:56:01,928

But um,

: 1125

00:56:02,398 --> 00:56:03,418

But if you have sleep

: 1126

00:56:03,458 --> 00:56:04,048

-: 0720

Skip the coffee.

: 1127

00:56:04,078 --> 00:56:05,978

-: 0720

I would yeah, I would recommend that

: 1128

00:56:05,978 --> 00:56:09,028

rather than doing it like at night I

mean, it's not to say that you can't do

: 1129

00:56:09,028 --> 00:56:12,438

it at night, but you may have trouble

sleeping I know I did the first I

: 1130

00:56:12,448 --> 00:56:16,008

did in the evening one time and it

was I did have trouble sleeping that

: 1131

00:56:16,018 --> 00:56:20,668

night Um, but the next time I did it

then I did it from in the morning.

: 1132

00:56:20,678 --> 00:56:23,428

And, you know, by the time I went

to bed, I had come down quite a bit

: 1133

00:56:23,428 --> 00:56:25,078

and had a normal night of sleep.

: 1134

00:56:25,078 --> 00:56:28,048

then same thing with micro

dosing, um, researchers are

: 1135

00:56:28,048 --> 00:56:29,248

starting to study this now.

: 1136

00:56:29,248 --> 00:56:33,418

And we, we don't have all the results

on that yet, but it likely is that like,

: 1137

00:56:33,418 --> 00:56:35,998

if you were to micro dose at night,

you might have some trouble sleeping.

: 1138

00:56:35,998 --> 00:56:39,048

So I would recommend that if you're

micro dosing to in the day, rather

: 1139

00:56:39,048 --> 00:56:42,548

than later, you know, it's similar

to like the concept of if you were,

: 1140

00:56:42,568 --> 00:56:47,213

if you were to, Do like a crazy high

intensity interval workout at 10 p.

: 1141

00:56:47,213 --> 00:56:47,473

m.

: 1142

00:56:47,473 --> 00:56:48,373

And you want him to go to bed at

: 1143

00:56:48,373 --> 00:56:49,173

11, you're going to be

: 1144

00:56:49,173 --> 00:56:49,503

-: 0720

ideal.

: 1145

00:56:49,543 --> 00:56:49,783

Yeah.

: 1146

00:56:50,128 --> 00:56:52,078

-: 0720

I can relate it to that a little bit.

: 1147

00:56:52,960 --> 00:56:54,700

-: 0720

Yeah, well, I think it would help too.

: 1148

00:56:54,710 --> 00:56:57,760

I mean if it's helping with focus

and things like this like it's most

: 1149

00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:00,130

useful during the day like I don't need

: 1150

00:57:00,130 --> 00:57:00,450

help with that

: 1151

00:57:00,600 --> 00:57:01,270

when I'm asleep.

: 1152

00:57:01,925 --> 00:57:02,275

-: 0720

Right.

: 1153

00:57:02,285 --> 00:57:05,255

It's not going to be like cannabis

where we, a lot of us use can, uh,

: 1154

00:57:05,265 --> 00:57:09,025

myself included use cannabis for

like mellowing So it's not like that.

: 1155

00:57:09,820 --> 00:57:10,750

-: 0720

Yeah, yeah.

: 1156

00:57:11,263 --> 00:57:16,303

Since you mentioned cannabis, I'd love to

know just really briefly how psilocybin

: 1157

00:57:16,323 --> 00:57:20,433

is different from Other drugs out there.

: 1158

00:57:20,463 --> 00:57:23,017

And for me, it's more appealing.

: 1159

00:57:23,027 --> 00:57:23,687

I don't know why.

: 1160

00:57:23,737 --> 00:57:27,727

Maybe that's that like, it just

resonates with me a little bit more.

: 1161

00:57:27,727 --> 00:57:30,397

But, um, I am not drawn to CBD oil.

: 1162

00:57:30,397 --> 00:57:34,857

I've had some really weird, um,

you know, reactions to that.

: 1163

00:57:34,907 --> 00:57:37,707

And so it just doesn't draw me.

: 1164

00:57:37,727 --> 00:57:38,547

I don't know.

: 1165

00:57:38,987 --> 00:57:42,717

Um, But I'd love to know how this

kind of acts a little bit differently

: 1166

00:57:42,793 --> 00:57:45,913

on the brain in comparison to

something like, you know, Okay.

: 1167

00:57:46,213 --> 00:57:50,568

MDMA or, um, well,

ayahuasca, like the other

: 1168

00:57:50,858 --> 00:57:51,468

-: 0720

Yeah.

: 1169

00:57:51,978 --> 00:57:52,598

-: 0720

psychedelics that are

: 1170

00:57:52,598 --> 00:57:53,298

kind of becoming

: 1171

00:57:54,433 --> 00:57:56,513

-: 0720

there's certainly LSD.

: 1172

00:57:56,523 --> 00:57:57,353

So that's acid.

: 1173

00:57:57,363 --> 00:58:00,573

Then there's, and there's,

um, MDMA, which is, you know,

: 1174

00:58:00,573 --> 00:58:02,213

like I said, ecstasy or molly.

: 1175

00:58:02,523 --> 00:58:05,753

And, um, you know, think about Like,

so obviously I think a lot of people

: 1176

00:58:05,753 --> 00:58:10,083

are drawn to psilocybin because it

is natural substance, um, as opposed

: 1177

00:58:10,103 --> 00:58:15,971

to something like acid or, MDMA and

ayahuasca is natural as well too.

: 1178

00:58:15,971 --> 00:58:18,636

So people drawn to Natural things.

: 1179

00:58:18,916 --> 00:58:23,833

Um, yeah, so there's some components

of, um, what happens in the brain are,

: 1180

00:58:23,933 --> 00:58:29,513

like, also happening on MDMA or LSD

or, um, ayahuasca, and you know, I

: 1181

00:58:29,513 --> 00:58:33,133

can't, I'm not an expert on those can't

really into all of the differences

: 1182

00:58:33,133 --> 00:58:37,678

and the, and similarities, um, but

I, I do You know, just want to point

: 1183

00:58:37,748 --> 00:58:42,608

out that like, uh, that acid, like

LSD and MDMA are natural substances.

: 1184

00:58:42,608 --> 00:58:43,568

That doesn't don't approve of them.

: 1185

00:58:43,568 --> 00:58:45,358

I, I approve of all psychedelics.

: 1186

00:58:45,358 --> 00:58:47,838

I'm just saying that they're

they're very different.

: 1187

00:58:47,868 --> 00:58:51,878

Um, terms of cannabis, um, you

know, there's some similarities,

: 1188

00:58:51,878 --> 00:58:55,948

but I would say that, uh, the

experience is, is very different.

: 1189

00:58:55,948 --> 00:58:58,238

I would say what's similar

in terms of like using.

: 1190

00:58:58,833 --> 00:59:03,733

psilocybin and cannabis, you know,

individually would be, um, a lot

: 1191

00:59:03,733 --> 00:59:06,263

of times with cannabis, you have

a little bit of euphoria and a

: 1192

00:59:06,263 --> 00:59:10,093

lot of people on, psilocybin will

experience that euphoria as well.

: 1193

00:59:10,093 --> 00:59:11,823

And that's a really pleasant thing.

: 1194

00:59:12,163 --> 00:59:16,233

Um, you know, Some people on

cannabis have, uh, issues with

: 1195

00:59:16,233 --> 00:59:17,883

anxiety, like it can drive.

: 1196

00:59:18,188 --> 00:59:20,818

paranoia or increased anxiety.

: 1197

00:59:21,058 --> 00:59:24,098

Um, and that can happen on psilocybin too.

: 1198

00:59:24,158 --> 00:59:29,838

um, usually the, the experience that

anxiety can, can mellow out, you know.

: 1199

00:59:29,998 --> 00:59:32,538

but yeah, it's just a very

different, um, I mean, obviously

: 1200

00:59:32,538 --> 00:59:36,528

they're all different substances,

but, um, yeah, I like them both.

: 1201

00:59:36,608 --> 00:59:40,563

I like cannabis and I like,

Cannabis has been very beneficial

: 1202

00:59:40,563 --> 00:59:44,156

to me in a microdose, um, format.

: 1203

00:59:44,156 --> 00:59:48,626

I mean, yes, I, I take enough

where I do feel it, but, um, I'm

: 1204

00:59:48,626 --> 00:59:51,616

not taking it so that I'm like

high out of my mind or something.

: 1205

00:59:51,646 --> 00:59:55,466

Not that high out of their mind, but

I'm not using cannabis recreationally.

: 1206

00:59:55,466 --> 01:00:00,246

I mostly use it, um, you know,

around 8 PM to just sort of

: 1207

01:00:00,246 --> 01:00:01,726

like ease myself into sleep.

: 1208

01:00:01,726 --> 01:00:05,726

And it really helps me sleep, but

psilocybin would not help me sleep.

: 1209

01:00:05,916 --> 01:00:07,106

That would not do good.

: 1210

01:00:07,781 --> 01:00:08,221

-: 0720

Yeah.

: 1211

01:00:08,791 --> 01:00:13,031

Well, it seems to just from, you know,

my understanding and from hearing you

: 1212

01:00:13,031 --> 01:00:15,911

talk and please correct me, I could

be completely wrong about this, but I

: 1213

01:00:15,921 --> 01:00:22,201

feel like cannabis is almost more in

that class of like, let's numb out a

: 1214

01:00:22,201 --> 01:00:24,851

little bit or chill out and numb out.

: 1215

01:00:24,861 --> 01:00:25,341

Whereas.

: 1216

01:00:25,486 --> 01:00:29,746

Um, so Simon is more like, lock into

what needs to be addressed here.

: 1217

01:00:29,756 --> 01:00:32,686

Like, it's a little more of,

um, of enlightenment maybe it.

: 1218

01:00:33,111 --> 01:00:35,541

-: 0720

Yeah, that's a great way to put it.

: 1219

01:00:35,541 --> 01:00:39,941

I, I would think of it like, if I'm if

I'm taking cannabis, I'm like, Hey, I'm

: 1220

01:00:39,941 --> 01:00:44,881

ready to like, kind of tune out just

relax, you know, feel the numbness of my

: 1221

01:00:44,881 --> 01:00:46,651

fingers and toes and things like that.

: 1222

01:00:46,691 --> 01:00:51,091

Um, And then if I were to use psilocybin,

it's like, Hey, we're going to buckle down

: 1223

01:00:51,091 --> 01:00:52,761

and get to work here, lady and work on

: 1224

01:00:52,846 --> 01:00:53,316

-: 0720

Yeah.

: 1225

01:00:53,466 --> 01:00:53,966

Yeah.

: 1226

01:00:54,326 --> 01:00:56,926

Maybe that's why I'm more drawn to it

because that's more of my natural state of

: 1227

01:00:57,256 --> 01:00:57,496

Buckle

: 1228

01:00:57,511 --> 01:00:58,001

-: 0720

I get it.

: 1229

01:00:58,001 --> 01:00:58,351

I mean, I'm

: 1230

01:00:58,361 --> 01:00:58,891

like that too.

: 1231

01:00:58,901 --> 01:00:59,271

I'm like, what are

: 1232

01:00:59,336 --> 01:00:59,666

-: 0720

All right.

: 1233

01:00:59,666 --> 01:00:59,906

Yeah.

: 1234

01:01:01,556 --> 01:01:02,046

To do list.

: 1235

01:01:02,601 --> 01:01:03,341

Oh man.

: 1236

01:01:03,342 --> 01:01:03,361

Okay.

: 1237

01:01:03,361 --> 01:01:03,781

Okay.

: 1238

01:01:03,781 --> 01:01:10,096

So let's dive into, um, The very

female specific aspects of this, you

: 1239

01:01:10,096 --> 01:01:14,270

know, I, I think a good example of

how things can affect the female brain

: 1240

01:01:14,330 --> 01:01:18,050

so drastically differently or like

ambient, like we know now that like

: 1241

01:01:18,050 --> 01:01:19,530

that affects women really differently.

: 1242

01:01:19,530 --> 01:01:22,120

And initially there were like car

accidents women were having and all

: 1243

01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:24,710

these things and people were like, Oh,

women are just bad drivers, whatever.

: 1244

01:01:24,710 --> 01:01:27,060

And then they realized

like, no, no, no, doses.

: 1245

01:01:27,520 --> 01:01:30,043

need to be like half of what

we're recommending for men.

: 1246

01:01:30,132 --> 01:01:32,992

Um, and then that switched

things, you know, a lot.

: 1247

01:01:33,322 --> 01:01:37,367

Um, we can all avoid taking something like

Ambien, but it's a good are different.

: 1248

01:01:37,367 --> 01:01:38,457

They function differently.

: 1249

01:01:38,777 --> 01:01:45,012

Um, And whether we are in size

smaller than men or not, like

: 1250

01:01:45,422 --> 01:01:46,772

we're just a different machine.

: 1251

01:01:47,132 --> 01:01:50,982

Um, have you found that there are

specific differences as far as,

: 1252

01:01:51,032 --> 01:01:56,168

um, you know, how this works on

the female brain versus the male?

: 1253

01:01:57,493 --> 01:01:58,653

Or at least how it

: 1254

01:01:58,933 --> 01:02:00,323

influences the downstream

: 1255

01:02:00,323 --> 01:02:01,053

effects.

: 1256

01:02:01,053 --> 01:02:01,463

Mm

: 1257

01:02:02,723 --> 01:02:03,243

-: 0720

Sure.

: 1258

01:02:03,243 --> 01:02:03,573

Yeah.

: 1259

01:02:03,573 --> 01:02:07,273

So there's some research now that has

come out that I'm really excited about

: 1260

01:02:07,273 --> 01:02:11,893

to suggest that psilocybin does, um,

interact with the menstrual cycle.

: 1261

01:02:11,943 --> 01:02:13,163

And so I'll dive into that.

: 1262

01:02:13,173 --> 01:02:16,893

But, so the thing to note, to back up,

because we didn't talk about this, is that

: 1263

01:02:16,893 --> 01:02:22,603

psilocybin is a tryptamine alkaloid and

it, binds to your serotonin receptors,

: 1264

01:02:22,613 --> 01:02:25,633

and it mimics that it mimics serotonin.

: 1265

01:02:25,633 --> 01:02:28,473

So it mimics that very

important neurotransmitter.

: 1266

01:02:28,473 --> 01:02:32,043

Serotonin is super important for

our not only our mood, but it's

: 1267

01:02:32,043 --> 01:02:35,943

also important for our digestion,

our libido, different things.

: 1268

01:02:36,753 --> 01:02:39,803

So psilocybin is activating

those serotonin receptors.

: 1269

01:02:39,833 --> 01:02:45,773

Um, So diving into that a little further,

what we do know is that estrogen like

: 1270

01:02:45,863 --> 01:02:49,703

likely somehow affects the binding

at the serotonin receptor site.

: 1271

01:02:49,703 --> 01:02:53,013

And so we don't really know all

the details on that yet, but

: 1272

01:02:53,013 --> 01:02:56,403

what we do know is that it likely

affects the menstrual cycle.

: 1273

01:02:56,563 --> 01:02:58,603

And so dig into that a

little bit more deeply.

: 1274

01:02:58,603 --> 01:03:01,473

It may matter where we are in

our menstrual cycles when we are.

: 1275

01:03:01,588 --> 01:03:03,538

when we are, um, macro dosing.

: 1276

01:03:03,538 --> 01:03:08,193

And then in terms of micro dosing, I'll

talk about that as well Um, what we,

: 1277

01:03:08,243 --> 01:03:12,513

what we know is that so our menstrual

cycles, well, I'll dig, I'll dig into

: 1278

01:03:12,513 --> 01:03:16,203

this, um, study that came out first,

then I'll dive into the menstrual cycle.

: 1279

01:03:16,223 --> 01:03:20,133

But some case studies that Johns

Hopkins university has been doing

: 1280

01:03:20,134 --> 01:03:21,943

at their psychedelic center.

: 1281

01:03:21,943 --> 01:03:22,523

Um, Dr.

: 1282

01:03:22,523 --> 01:03:24,153

Natalie Kassian and Dr.

: 1283

01:03:24,163 --> 01:03:27,438

Sasha Kane and Ryan, been prolific

in this, and I'm so excited about

: 1284

01:03:27,438 --> 01:03:28,458

the research that they're doing.

: 1285

01:03:28,458 --> 01:03:31,038

And I know they're going to continue

to study this, but they did some

: 1286

01:03:31,038 --> 01:03:35,648

case studies looking at how are

psychedelics affecting cycle potentially.

: 1287

01:03:35,648 --> 01:03:37,998

And there are three things

that kind of have cropped up.

: 1288

01:03:38,208 --> 01:03:42,628

One is that, um, and they focused

on psilocybin to a certain extent.

: 1289

01:03:42,638 --> 01:03:46,098

So one is that it's possible

that psilocybin may make your

: 1290

01:03:46,098 --> 01:03:47,368

period come a little early.

: 1291

01:03:47,898 --> 01:03:48,908

earlier than expected.

: 1292

01:03:49,228 --> 01:03:51,858

It may also re regulate your

menstrual cycle if you've

: 1293

01:03:51,858 --> 01:03:53,728

had a time of irregularity.

: 1294

01:03:53,728 --> 01:03:57,109

So, um, you know, a lot of conditions

like premenstrual dysphoric

: 1295

01:03:57,139 --> 01:04:01,449

disorder, polycystic ovary ovary

syndrome, and then can disrupt

: 1296

01:04:01,449 --> 01:04:02,819

the menstrual cycle quite a bit.

: 1297

01:04:03,109 --> 01:04:05,089

And so you may, and so can stress.

: 1298

01:04:05,119 --> 01:04:07,389

And so, you know, there, there

might be a time where you've had an

: 1299

01:04:07,409 --> 01:04:11,159

absence of a period or you've, your

period's just been really erratic.

: 1300

01:04:11,159 --> 01:04:15,379

Well, it seems like psilocybin may be

able to reregulate The menstrual cycle.

: 1301

01:04:15,389 --> 01:04:19,288

The other thing is that it may bring

back a menstrual cycle after a time

: 1302

01:04:19,339 --> 01:04:23,809

of irregular, of, of an So I'm not

talking about in menopause, but in

: 1303

01:04:23,809 --> 01:04:27,269

your reproductive years, there've

been, you know, many conditions can

: 1304

01:04:27,269 --> 01:04:30,788

cause an absence of a period or a

lot of weight loss, all of that.

: 1305

01:04:30,788 --> 01:04:31,399

can cause that.

: 1306

01:04:31,399 --> 01:04:35,779

And so that might bring your menstrual had

a time of, of of where it's been absent.

: 1307

01:04:36,399 --> 01:04:37,909

So why would this occur?

: 1308

01:04:37,909 --> 01:04:41,657

Um, again, we need more research on those

specific things, but the research is

: 1309

01:04:41,677 --> 01:04:45,290

starting and I'm excited about that, uh,

because it may have a lot of ramifications

: 1310

01:04:45,290 --> 01:04:50,190

for, I mean, and benefits, I should

say, for, um, these conditions that do

: 1311

01:04:50,210 --> 01:04:53,830

interact with the menstrual cycle, plus

maybe fertility even, we don't know.

: 1312

01:04:53,980 --> 01:04:55,620

We just need to need to study that more.

: 1313

01:04:56,005 --> 01:05:01,035

But the menstrual cycle occurs called

the hypothalamic pituitary gonadal axis.

: 1314

01:05:01,045 --> 01:05:05,045

So when we are, um, dealing with

our menstrual cycle, you know, we

: 1315

01:05:05,045 --> 01:05:09,525

have the the follicular phase, then

ovulation, then the luteal phase,

: 1316

01:05:09,525 --> 01:05:10,675

and then you would get your period.

: 1317

01:05:10,975 --> 01:05:14,625

And the reason that happens is

because the brain and the ovaries

: 1318

01:05:14,625 --> 01:05:16,215

are communicating with each other.

: 1319

01:05:16,215 --> 01:05:20,105

And when one hormone kicks off, it tells

another hormone what to do and so forth.

: 1320

01:05:20,105 --> 01:05:22,835

And this all occurs

along this feedback loop.

: 1321

01:05:22,920 --> 01:05:26,710

of the menstrual cycle, and then

we also have another axis in our

: 1322

01:05:26,710 --> 01:05:28,230

bodies, and everyone has this.

: 1323

01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:31,130

It's called the hypothalamic

pituitary axis, and that is very

: 1324

01:05:31,130 --> 01:05:32,930

concerned with our stress response.

: 1325

01:05:33,020 --> 01:05:36,516

And, and so, you know, when we

take psilocybin, we are activating

: 1326

01:05:37,626 --> 01:05:42,496

that, uh, the HPA axis, the

hypothalamic pituitary adrenal axis.

: 1327

01:05:42,696 --> 01:05:45,350

But you can tell by their

names that these axes overlap.

: 1328

01:05:45,350 --> 01:05:47,760

So we've got the hypothalamus

and the pituitary gland, they're

: 1329

01:05:47,760 --> 01:05:50,355

overlapping with the Um, the H.

: 1330

01:05:50,355 --> 01:05:50,535

P.

: 1331

01:05:50,535 --> 01:05:50,825

G.

: 1332

01:05:50,825 --> 01:05:51,815

Axis and the H.

: 1333

01:05:51,815 --> 01:05:52,055

P.

: 1334

01:05:52,055 --> 01:05:52,275

A.

: 1335

01:05:52,275 --> 01:05:52,745

Axis.

: 1336

01:05:52,745 --> 01:05:55,165

They overlap and we know

that one affects the other.

: 1337

01:05:55,165 --> 01:05:58,495

We already know this from just

living as women in our lives.

: 1338

01:05:58,495 --> 01:06:01,715

We know if we're stressed out, that

could impact periods and when we

: 1339

01:06:01,715 --> 01:06:04,765

get our periods that can certainly

make us more stressed, right?

: 1340

01:06:05,095 --> 01:06:08,335

So that we know from from our

experiences, plus from scientific

: 1341

01:06:08,375 --> 01:06:09,545

literature that they overlap.

: 1342

01:06:09,555 --> 01:06:13,185

So it's not a stretch to assume

that one axes would affect

: 1343

01:06:13,215 --> 01:06:15,055

the other and likely they do.

: 1344

01:06:15,810 --> 01:06:20,990

So how do you manage that with figuring

out should you, in your cycle, uh, do

: 1345

01:06:20,990 --> 01:06:23,000

a deeper journey, like a macrodose?

: 1346

01:06:23,260 --> 01:06:28,120

So, um, Indigenous wisdom practices,

you would not be allowed to engage in

: 1347

01:06:28,120 --> 01:06:31,830

ceremony if you were on your period,

and that's just part of their rules,

: 1348

01:06:31,990 --> 01:06:35,790

and that's likely for and when I

Indigenous wisdom expert, she also

: 1349

01:06:35,800 --> 01:06:40,960

said that it's best, um, to if you're

if you're planning to do a macro dose,

: 1350

01:06:40,960 --> 01:06:43,900

do that closer ovulation rather than

when you get closer to your period.

: 1351

01:06:44,170 --> 01:06:47,870

And that simply has to do

with, um, the energy that's

: 1352

01:06:47,870 --> 01:06:49,640

available to us in our bodies.

: 1353

01:06:49,650 --> 01:06:53,440

And I'm talking about like, like the

way that we metabolize and insulin that

: 1354

01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:55,620

changes as we get closer to our periods.

: 1355

01:06:55,640 --> 01:07:01,695

And so if you are, um, close to your

period and trying to do a journey, Um, a

: 1356

01:07:01,695 --> 01:07:06,615

macro dose can feel very energy depleting

for the body and just temporarily,

: 1357

01:07:06,815 --> 01:07:10,675

but you know, you're already energy

depleted as you're in that late luteal

: 1358

01:07:10,685 --> 01:07:12,465

phase getting closer to your period.

: 1359

01:07:12,835 --> 01:07:16,605

And so another thing to consider is

a lot of people fast before a dose.

: 1360

01:07:16,645 --> 01:07:19,725

Um, and that might just be like the

hours leading up to the macro dose,

: 1361

01:07:19,825 --> 01:07:23,995

or it could be like, maybe you're

you're doing a dietary change for

: 1362

01:07:24,035 --> 01:07:27,555

several days and you're fasting may

be a part of that leading up to it.

: 1363

01:07:27,965 --> 01:07:30,065

You know, There are just different

practices surrounding it.

: 1364

01:07:30,889 --> 01:07:35,099

It's very hard to fast in

that late luteal phase.

: 1365

01:07:35,379 --> 01:07:38,999

Um, But during, as we're closer to

ovulation, we have much more energy

: 1366

01:07:38,999 --> 01:07:40,559

available to our, in our bodies.

: 1367

01:07:40,559 --> 01:07:43,814

And this all makes sense from a

scientific metabolic health get

: 1368

01:07:43,844 --> 01:07:47,954

insulin resistant in the luteal phase

because our bodies are sending all the

: 1369

01:07:48,354 --> 01:07:51,514

The um glucose to the womb, right?

: 1370

01:07:51,574 --> 01:07:55,944

And so, um, It we just have more

and we're less insulin resistant.

: 1371

01:07:55,944 --> 01:07:59,274

We have more energy in our bodies

during that ovulation time.

: 1372

01:07:59,284 --> 01:08:02,604

So that's the recommendation on

macro dosing is to try not to

: 1373

01:08:02,604 --> 01:08:04,064

do it too close to your period.

: 1374

01:08:04,604 --> 01:08:09,784

And then in terms of micro dosing, my

indigenous wisdom expert recommended to,

: 1375

01:08:10,094 --> 01:08:13,394

if you're thinking about micro dosing

to see how that affects your menstrual

: 1376

01:08:13,394 --> 01:08:18,194

cycle, and many people are trying this

for various conditions, um, that to do

: 1377

01:08:18,194 --> 01:08:23,974

that for three months, like follow a

specific protocol, like the Fadiman stack.

: 1378

01:08:24,174 --> 01:08:27,413

Follow that for three months

and track your symptoms.

: 1379

01:08:27,424 --> 01:08:30,513

So like, you know, take a journal

and mark down if you're having

: 1380

01:08:30,523 --> 01:08:32,122

changes in your menstrual cycle.

: 1381

01:08:32,443 --> 01:08:36,202

And that will kind of inform you, um,

three months later, if you want to switch

: 1382

01:08:36,202 --> 01:08:40,323

them out, switch up the protocol, if

you want to stop completely, or if it,

: 1383

01:08:40,353 --> 01:08:43,643

if you realize that it is working with

you and you want to continue with it, it

: 1384

01:08:43,663 --> 01:08:48,372

takes about three months to really see

effects menstrual cycle with micro dosing.

: 1385

01:08:48,383 --> 01:08:49,683

So just to keep that in mind.

: 1386

01:08:49,993 --> 01:08:50,363

-: 0720

Yeah.

: 1387

01:08:50,363 --> 01:08:52,023

That's that's great information.

: 1388

01:08:52,053 --> 01:08:52,363

I.

: 1389

01:08:52,363 --> 01:08:52,483

Yeah.

: 1390

01:08:53,252 --> 01:08:56,582

Curious to see more of the research on

that as well, too, because I know, you

: 1391

01:08:56,582 --> 01:08:58,292

know, a lot of women are realizing.

: 1392

01:08:58,848 --> 01:09:02,238

At a certain point in their lives, like,

hey, I don't want to be on birth control

: 1393

01:09:02,238 --> 01:09:08,077

anymore, you know, whether or not they

want to get pregnant and they really to

: 1394

01:09:08,118 --> 01:09:13,818

re regulate their natural cycle because

they've been, you know, not having a real

: 1395

01:09:13,818 --> 01:09:17,108

cycle for decades, potentially, right?

: 1396

01:09:17,108 --> 01:09:19,548

And they want to kind of re

regulate that and sort of.

: 1397

01:09:19,898 --> 01:09:22,558

Get to the point where they can get a

baseline on what's happening with their

: 1398

01:09:22,558 --> 01:09:28,684

hormones Which you can't do when you're

on any kind of you know birth control or

: 1399

01:09:29,084 --> 01:09:29,884

hormonal treatment

: 1400

01:09:30,913 --> 01:09:32,874

So that could be a really interesting

: 1401

01:09:32,874 --> 01:09:33,493

tool for that

: 1402

01:09:34,014 --> 01:09:34,974

-: 0720

I think so too.

: 1403

01:09:34,984 --> 01:09:36,834

And yeah, I'm with you on that.

: 1404

01:09:36,844 --> 01:09:40,995

Like I um, I was, I had a blood clot and

it was actually caught in my arm and it

: 1405

01:09:40,995 --> 01:09:43,115

was actually caused by birth control.

: 1406

01:09:43,115 --> 01:09:48,395

It's a, It's a rare risk

factor for having a blood clot.

: 1407

01:09:48,425 --> 01:09:53,015

And so after that, I was no longer

allowed to be on birth control at all.

: 1408

01:09:53,295 --> 01:09:57,195

But birth control was helping me

for a while with wasn't a perfect

: 1409

01:09:57,485 --> 01:10:00,150

but it was helping to a then I

was like, what am I gonna do?

: 1410

01:10:00,190 --> 01:10:00,520

know?

: 1411

01:10:00,940 --> 01:10:05,423

And so, you know, I wondered

if, um, that if I, had I had a

: 1412

01:10:05,423 --> 01:10:08,684

hysterectomy eventually, but, um,

which is not a cure for endometriosis.

: 1413

01:10:08,684 --> 01:10:09,645

I'm not trying to say that.

: 1414

01:10:09,705 --> 01:10:13,485

But, um, but I, you know, leading

up to that, I was really, really

: 1415

01:10:13,485 --> 01:10:17,415

struggling with so much pain after

not being able to take birth control.

: 1416

01:10:17,415 --> 01:10:22,635

And I'm wondering if I had had access to

psilocybin then if I uh, or if I had known

: 1417

01:10:22,635 --> 01:10:24,675

about it or known about the benefits of

: 1418

01:10:24,675 --> 01:10:25,005

what that

: 1419

01:10:25,100 --> 01:10:26,210

-: 0720

Right, man.

: 1420

01:10:26,230 --> 01:10:29,470

Wouldn't it be wonderful if people could

get more access to this and not have to

: 1421

01:10:29,470 --> 01:10:31,059

go through that unnecessary suffering?

: 1422

01:10:31,430 --> 01:10:34,800

And I think the clotting is a

more common thing than we realize.

: 1423

01:10:34,830 --> 01:10:39,470

I mean, you're one of probably,

well, at least two women who I know,

: 1424

01:10:39,480 --> 01:10:43,200

one of my close girlfriends had

thrombosis that traveled to her.

: 1425

01:10:43,640 --> 01:10:45,460

Long, you know, it, it was almost fatal.

: 1426

01:10:45,680 --> 01:10:47,120

It was really really scary.

: 1427

01:10:47,130 --> 01:10:49,375

And, um, this is just a personal trainer.

: 1428

01:10:49,375 --> 01:10:50,735

I mean, extremely fit person.

: 1429

01:10:51,125 --> 01:10:53,040

Um, And it was the

: 1430

01:10:53,040 --> 01:10:53,490

birth control.

: 1431

01:10:55,305 --> 01:10:56,415

-: 0720

I mean, that was the thing for me.

: 1432

01:10:56,415 --> 01:10:58,315

Like I, I'm exerciser.

: 1433

01:10:58,315 --> 01:11:02,285

I love fitness and, um, I'm

super healthy for the most part.

: 1434

01:11:02,315 --> 01:11:05,305

And, uh, so when I, and I've

never smoked in my life.

: 1435

01:11:05,305 --> 01:11:07,355

And so presented with that, it was.

: 1436

01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:09,270

It was very, I was surprised.

: 1437

01:11:09,270 --> 01:11:11,870

I was like, how could I possibly

have a blood blood clot?

: 1438

01:11:11,870 --> 01:11:13,910

And actually doctors weren't

sure at first either.

: 1439

01:11:13,910 --> 01:11:15,410

They were like, what is going here?

: 1440

01:11:15,410 --> 01:11:16,720

And so, yeah.

: 1441

01:11:16,720 --> 01:11:20,260

And, and to your point, I do think

it's more common than we think.

: 1442

01:11:20,280 --> 01:11:23,850

Um, I ended up writing an article

about this for health line, about

: 1443

01:11:23,850 --> 01:11:27,160

my personal experience and like the

risk factors for that and everything.

: 1444

01:11:27,550 --> 01:11:30,963

And I can't tell you

how many messages I get.

: 1445

01:11:31,083 --> 01:11:34,923

Per year from women who've

had the same issue crop up.

: 1446

01:11:35,283 --> 01:11:38,043

And they're they're call, they're

reaching out to me on like Facebook

: 1447

01:11:38,043 --> 01:11:42,093

Messenger or dms and Instagram, which

I'm totally open to, but they're asking

: 1448

01:11:42,093 --> 01:11:43,983

me for medical advice and a doctor.

: 1449

01:11:44,283 --> 01:11:47,583

And it's because they're not adequate

information from their doctors.

: 1450

01:11:47,588 --> 01:11:51,634

And the the crazy thing too is

that, um, a lot, sometimes people.

: 1451

01:11:52,003 --> 01:11:55,083

Reach me initially just to sort of

commiserate over this experience.

: 1452

01:11:55,103 --> 01:11:58,753

But the other thing that I get from

people is, um, they message me and

: 1453

01:11:58,753 --> 01:12:01,113

they're like, Oh, you know, cause

immediately if you have a blood

: 1454

01:12:01,113 --> 01:12:02,163

clot, they're on a blood thinner.

: 1455

01:12:02,163 --> 01:12:02,493

Right?

: 1456

01:12:02,923 --> 01:12:05,093

Well, as women, we get periods, right?

: 1457

01:12:05,143 --> 01:12:07,433

I'm depending on where you are

in your age, you know, but.

: 1458

01:12:08,098 --> 01:12:11,228

If you get a period on a

blood thinner, it is like,

: 1459

01:12:11,278 --> 01:12:12,978

Oh my God, am I hemorrhaging?

: 1460

01:12:13,028 --> 01:12:13,368

Am I dying?

: 1461

01:12:14,318 --> 01:12:16,648

And so it, and they don't

warn you about this.

: 1462

01:12:16,648 --> 01:12:20,308

And there's research about it that,

um, that it's like 75 percent of

: 1463

01:12:20,308 --> 01:12:22,998

women who take a blood thinner

will have a horrendous period.

: 1464

01:12:22,998 --> 01:12:26,318

And it is like, it looks like you've

been slaughtered in your bathroom.

: 1465

01:12:26,708 --> 01:12:29,077

And so they reach out to me and

they're like, am I hemorrhaging?

: 1466

01:12:29,077 --> 01:12:30,378

Do I need to go to the hospital?

: 1467

01:12:30,378 --> 01:12:33,418

And I nearly needed an iron

infusion because of it.

: 1468

01:12:33,418 --> 01:12:33,588

It was.

: 1469

01:12:33,603 --> 01:12:36,573

So bad, you know, and I need, I

know I needed to be on that blood

: 1470

01:12:36,613 --> 01:12:39,403

thinner, but no one about that.

: 1471

01:12:39,653 --> 01:12:40,553

-: 0720

so common.

: 1472

01:12:41,783 --> 01:12:42,803

It's so common.

: 1473

01:12:43,263 --> 01:12:50,923

it's just unbelievable to me little the

mainstream medical world understands about

: 1474

01:12:50,923 --> 01:12:51,523

women's bodies.

: 1475

01:12:52,443 --> 01:12:53,073

And how all these

: 1476

01:12:53,573 --> 01:12:55,293

-: 0720

And I'm not, I'm not against

: 1477

01:12:55,293 --> 01:12:56,243

the mainstream medical

: 1478

01:12:56,473 --> 01:12:56,952

-: 0720

no.

: 1479

01:12:57,003 --> 01:12:57,873

-: 0720

love science and

: 1480

01:12:57,913 --> 01:12:58,603

-: 0720

but we have a long way

: 1481

01:12:58,613 --> 01:12:59,603

-: 0720

you know, and I Yeah.

: 1482

01:12:59,653 --> 01:13:00,483

We have a long way to go.

: 1483

01:13:00,503 --> 01:13:00,713

Yes.

: 1484

01:13:01,243 --> 01:13:05,915

-: 0720

Um, yeah, so menopause, or perimenopause

: 1485

01:13:05,985 --> 01:13:10,515

because that's another, I think,

poorly understood stage of life.

: 1486

01:13:10,965 --> 01:13:16,595

And I think that we, as women, Mostly

your horror stories about this, right?

: 1487

01:13:16,595 --> 01:13:18,845

We hear like, Oh God,

wait till in menopause.

: 1488

01:13:18,845 --> 01:13:19,445

It's horrible.

: 1489

01:13:19,445 --> 01:13:24,265

And they're going to be having hot sweats

and, um, hot flashes and night sweats,

: 1490

01:13:24,275 --> 01:13:25,675

and you're not gonna be able to sleep.

: 1491

01:13:25,684 --> 01:13:26,425

Like, just wait.

: 1492

01:13:26,465 --> 01:13:28,945

I had a woman say this to me

like a matter of months ago.

: 1493

01:13:28,985 --> 01:13:29,975

She's like, Oh, just

: 1494

01:13:29,975 --> 01:13:30,315

wait.

: 1495

01:13:31,015 --> 01:13:32,280

And it's Okay.

: 1496

01:13:32,290 --> 01:13:34,790

Well, first of all, not every

woman has that experience,

: 1497

01:13:36,160 --> 01:13:40,330

but second of all, I don't think that

we have to come into this in this state

: 1498

01:13:40,330 --> 01:13:43,300

of mind of there's nothing I can do.

: 1499

01:13:43,340 --> 01:13:49,090

Um, I'm just a slave to my

genetic predisposition, et cetera.

: 1500

01:13:49,410 --> 01:13:55,040

Um, So I want to know how this can be

used as a tool or how it potentially.

: 1501

01:13:55,275 --> 01:14:00,705

You know, can affect things in that

perimenopausal and menopausal stage,

: 1502

01:14:00,715 --> 01:14:04,565

because obviously our hormones are in

a very different state post menopause.

: 1503

01:14:04,615 --> 01:14:08,469

This is after, technically after

your period has stopped completely

: 1504

01:14:08,469 --> 01:14:10,089

for a full calendar year.

: 1505

01:14:10,489 --> 01:14:13,809

Um, on that, but that's the

generally recognized diagnosis.

: 1506

01:14:14,159 --> 01:14:19,059

Um, And, you know, what

looks different there?

: 1507

01:14:19,059 --> 01:14:23,309

Because I know, like, for example,

from a nutrition perspective, women

: 1508

01:14:23,309 --> 01:14:29,039

can Often do things like fasting more

in a way that men can when they're

: 1509

01:14:29,039 --> 01:14:34,109

post menopausal while it, whereas when

they're still having cycles, it can look

: 1510

01:14:34,119 --> 01:14:38,219

very different and they need to go

about it very differently because it

: 1511

01:14:39,039 --> 01:14:41,189

You know, it's a different situation.

: 1512

01:14:41,209 --> 01:14:46,789

So talk to us about in this kind of

context, because many of my listeners

: 1513

01:14:46,829 --> 01:14:49,849

that perimenopausal state of life.

: 1514

01:14:50,239 --> 01:14:52,139

Um, And many of them

: 1515

01:14:52,139 --> 01:14:52,779

are also

: 1516

01:14:53,099 --> 01:14:53,259

postmenopausal.

: 1517

01:14:54,144 --> 01:14:54,954

-: 0720

Absolutely.

: 1518

01:14:54,954 --> 01:14:55,193

Yeah.

: 1519

01:14:55,193 --> 01:14:58,324

So this is, um, something I love

talking about menopause because I'm

: 1520

01:14:58,324 --> 01:15:00,254

actually in perimenopause right now.

: 1521

01:15:00,254 --> 01:15:03,294

I actually don't know where I am in my

menopause trajectory because I don't,

: 1522

01:15:03,374 --> 01:15:07,029

I had a hysterectomy, so I don't have a

period and it's like, Am I in menopause?

: 1523

01:15:07,029 --> 01:15:07,549

Am I not?

: 1524

01:15:07,568 --> 01:15:08,229

What's going on?

: 1525

01:15:08,229 --> 01:15:12,629

You know, but yeah, that time to that,

to the actual menopause, when you've

: 1526

01:15:12,629 --> 01:15:16,759

had an absence of a period for a year,

um, that time leading up to that,

: 1527

01:15:16,759 --> 01:15:19,039

which can last decade is perimenopause.

: 1528

01:15:19,079 --> 01:15:22,959

And that's when we tend to get some of

these symptoms like hot flashes, um,

: 1529

01:15:22,969 --> 01:15:26,739

potentially weight gain, depression can

crop up even for people who've never had

: 1530

01:15:26,739 --> 01:15:32,129

depression before, um, a change in libido,

all of things can happen in perimenopause.

: 1531

01:15:32,524 --> 01:15:35,504

And you know, you made a really great

point that we need to reframe the way that

: 1532

01:15:35,504 --> 01:15:39,864

we, we talk about menopause and we think

about it because yes, it's this, it can

: 1533

01:15:39,864 --> 01:15:43,994

be, we can have a lot of symptoms crop

up and people look at it a lot of dread.

: 1534

01:15:44,284 --> 01:15:48,264

But what if we reframed that as

this concept of like, we're trying,

: 1535

01:15:48,304 --> 01:15:51,514

we're, we're making a transition in

life, we're entering a new chapter.

: 1536

01:15:51,514 --> 01:15:52,364

And what if it weren't?

: 1537

01:15:52,589 --> 01:15:53,459

this bad thing?

: 1538

01:15:53,489 --> 01:15:55,309

we thought about it as

something beautiful?

: 1539

01:15:55,639 --> 01:15:58,519

And so my indigenous wisdom expert,

she kind of brought that up and she,

: 1540

01:15:58,568 --> 01:16:02,909

she said, psilocybin or mushrooms

themselves, mushrooms are, um, and you

: 1541

01:16:02,909 --> 01:16:07,549

know, fun, fungi out there are great

like decomposers and they literally

: 1542

01:16:07,549 --> 01:16:09,549

transition matter into something else.

: 1543

01:16:09,818 --> 01:16:12,899

And that is also something that we

can think about with our bodies is

: 1544

01:16:12,909 --> 01:16:14,289

with menopause is that we are just.

: 1545

01:16:14,769 --> 01:16:19,488

We're going through this beautiful

metamorphosis, perhaps, so that's one

: 1546

01:16:19,488 --> 01:16:23,168

thing I wanted to share, but, um, I

do have some some actual that I think

: 1547

01:16:23,168 --> 01:16:27,798

that psilocybin can help with, so one

thing to consider is that when people

: 1548

01:16:27,798 --> 01:16:31,198

enter enter perimenopause, and if that

depression again, it doesn't happen for

: 1549

01:16:31,198 --> 01:16:34,608

everyone, but it can happen, especially,

even for people who've never had it

: 1550

01:16:34,608 --> 01:16:38,263

before, um, um, so, You'll go to your

doctor, and the first thing the doctor's

: 1551

01:16:38,263 --> 01:16:42,313

going to do is prescribe you a selective

serotonin reuptake inhibitor, which

: 1552

01:16:42,313 --> 01:16:47,623

is an antidepressant, commonly called

an SS rri, or an SSNRI with selective

: 1553

01:16:47,623 --> 01:16:49,513

norepinephrine reuptake inhibitor.

: 1554

01:16:49,903 --> 01:16:52,633

And so you might be put on

one of those and there's

: 1555

01:16:52,638 --> 01:16:53,923

nothing wrong with those drugs.

: 1556

01:16:53,923 --> 01:16:55,303

I appreciate that they're out there.

: 1557

01:16:55,303 --> 01:16:58,093

They've helped many, many people,

including myself and the previous.

: 1558

01:16:58,353 --> 01:16:59,113

previous years.

: 1559

01:16:59,113 --> 01:17:02,273

I'm no longer on them now, but, and

I don't want anyone, I don't want to

: 1560

01:17:02,273 --> 01:17:05,543

encourage anyone to go off of their

medication if it's working for them

: 1561

01:17:05,543 --> 01:17:07,153

and if this is the right thing for you.

: 1562

01:17:07,173 --> 01:17:11,133

But I do have, I do take issue with

the medical community just to that

: 1563

01:17:11,163 --> 01:17:15,043

automatically and slapping it on

a woman in there in perimenopause

: 1564

01:17:15,063 --> 01:17:19,083

because, um, SSRIs have side effects.

: 1565

01:17:19,113 --> 01:17:23,243

And one of those side effects,

is low libido, or it can be.

: 1566

01:17:23,243 --> 01:17:26,683

It doesn't happen to everyone, but it

can happen, and also cause weight gain.

: 1567

01:17:26,683 --> 01:17:29,983

So now you're going into menopause,

you've got depression, they give

: 1568

01:17:29,983 --> 01:17:33,873

you the pill, um, the SSRI, you're

going to take every day, and it's

: 1569

01:17:33,873 --> 01:17:36,157

going to exacerbate symptoms, right?

: 1570

01:17:36,168 --> 01:17:38,698

So I have, I do have a

real problem with that.

: 1571

01:17:39,077 --> 01:17:44,447

And, um, what what we know about SSRIs

too, is not only do they blunt your, well,

: 1572

01:17:44,447 --> 01:17:45,657

they, they, well, they blunt your mood.

: 1573

01:17:45,847 --> 01:17:46,747

That's how they work.

: 1574

01:17:46,767 --> 01:17:48,416

And that's what the aim is.

: 1575

01:17:48,697 --> 01:17:51,467

But not only do they blunt your

lows, they also blunt your highs.

: 1576

01:17:51,760 --> 01:17:57,030

So now you're going into perimenopause,

you've got depression and you're,

: 1577

01:17:57,040 --> 01:17:58,120

you're struggling with like just.

: 1578

01:17:58,385 --> 01:18:01,255

other things in midlife like

taking care of your parents, taking

: 1579

01:18:01,255 --> 01:18:03,005

care of your doing your career.

: 1580

01:18:03,127 --> 01:18:06,597

And now you can't even lean

into all those joys as much.

: 1581

01:18:06,607 --> 01:18:10,217

You know, I, I struggle with people

just giving women these SSRIs.

: 1582

01:18:10,797 --> 01:18:11,077

Yeah.

: 1583

01:18:11,517 --> 01:18:15,597

And so, um, what we do know

about, uh, about psilocybin is

: 1584

01:18:15,597 --> 01:18:17,097

that it does not blunt mood.

: 1585

01:18:17,107 --> 01:18:20,987

So it activates your serotonin

receptors, but it doesn't blunt the mood.

: 1586

01:18:20,987 --> 01:18:24,607

Instead, what what people are

reporting through, and this Is coming

: 1587

01:18:24,607 --> 01:18:27,697

through in scientific research is

that it actually makes feel more

: 1588

01:18:27,697 --> 01:18:29,177

okay with your highs and lows.

: 1589

01:18:29,187 --> 01:18:31,797

So you just exist with

them in a normal way.

: 1590

01:18:32,097 --> 01:18:34,297

And you know, you're

not blunting that mood.

: 1591

01:18:34,317 --> 01:18:36,847

So I love that as a potential.

: 1592

01:18:37,087 --> 01:18:39,787

The other thing to consider is that

with an SSRI, you have to take it.

: 1593

01:18:39,955 --> 01:18:42,985

Every day for it to work and I've

experience where I've skipped

: 1594

01:18:42,985 --> 01:18:44,665

a pill, you know, in the past.

: 1595

01:18:44,665 --> 01:18:48,025

And then I was like, Oh gosh, I

feel like crap, you know, having

: 1596

01:18:48,025 --> 01:18:49,455

mood swings or something like that.

: 1597

01:18:49,455 --> 01:18:52,315

And so again, no longer have

I've had that experience.

: 1598

01:18:52,400 --> 01:18:55,135

And they're also very

difficult to get off of.

: 1599

01:18:55,425 --> 01:18:58,184

Um, you know, you might take it

for a while while you need it.

: 1600

01:18:58,650 --> 01:19:01,190

And then it's it's really

hard to taper off of them.

: 1601

01:19:01,190 --> 01:19:04,040

I had a horrendous time

getting off of I was on.

: 1602

01:19:04,470 --> 01:19:07,550

And so, you know, again, like

it's, it's one of those things.

: 1603

01:19:07,550 --> 01:19:10,850

It's like, um, again, I'm not

against these medications people,

: 1604

01:19:11,100 --> 01:19:14,790

but and there's another option,

I would try that first, you know?

: 1605

01:19:15,080 --> 01:19:20,380

And so, um, You know, going into the

discussion about libido, so commonly,

: 1606

01:19:20,790 --> 01:19:25,750

um, libido can, can go down, or sexual, I

should say female sexual dysfunction can

: 1607

01:19:25,780 --> 01:19:30,870

increase in that perimenopause time, and

female sexual dysfunction can encompass

: 1608

01:19:30,870 --> 01:19:35,230

so many things, it could be pain with

intercourse, it could be low libido, could

: 1609

01:19:35,230 --> 01:19:40,400

be, um, you know, inability to orgasm,

there are so many facets, you know.

: 1610

01:19:40,460 --> 01:19:41,320

of that.

: 1611

01:19:41,422 --> 01:19:44,272

But again, this can really

crop up in perimenopause.

: 1612

01:19:44,312 --> 01:19:48,272

And so, um, I don't want to be

people blunting their libido by

: 1613

01:19:48,272 --> 01:19:51,662

taking an SSRI if they don't need

to, if there's an alternative option.

: 1614

01:19:51,672 --> 01:19:53,432

So will boost your sex life?

: 1615

01:19:53,482 --> 01:19:55,282

This is something that

I like to talk about.

: 1616

01:19:55,732 --> 01:20:00,532

Um, so, uh, it's not necessarily

going to be this classic aphrodisiac,

: 1617

01:20:00,541 --> 01:20:04,032

like we're thinking of like something

like or oysters or whatever, like.

: 1618

01:20:04,317 --> 01:20:06,907

that people say, it's

not really like that.

: 1619

01:20:06,937 --> 01:20:10,977

Um, But what it may do is it

may boost your confidence.

: 1620

01:20:10,987 --> 01:20:14,247

So if you go off and do a macrodose

on your own, um, maybe you're not

: 1621

01:20:14,247 --> 01:20:16,577

doing it with your partner, you

go off and do that on your own.

: 1622

01:20:16,887 --> 01:20:20,277

It may boost your like confidence

in the bedroom and really like

: 1623

01:20:20,277 --> 01:20:23,827

voicing what you need from your

partner, which is a possibility.

: 1624

01:20:24,227 --> 01:20:27,197

Um, the other, The other thing to

consider is that there are some

: 1625

01:20:27,197 --> 01:20:30,497

things that are protective against

female sexual dysfunction and those.

: 1626

01:20:30,522 --> 01:20:35,212

things are having a positive body image

and having intimate partner communication.

: 1627

01:20:35,452 --> 01:20:38,272

And there's no guarantee that's

going to fix everything, but it

: 1628

01:20:38,272 --> 01:20:41,692

can really help be protective

against female sexual dysfunction.

: 1629

01:20:42,022 --> 01:20:45,502

And we do know through clinical

trials that psilocybin is being

: 1630

01:20:45,502 --> 01:20:46,922

studied for eating disorders.

: 1631

01:20:46,932 --> 01:20:49,692

There are like 11 types of

eating disorders out there.

: 1632

01:20:49,692 --> 01:20:53,162

But we think of one of the most

classic is anorexia nervosa.

: 1633

01:20:53,162 --> 01:20:54,522

And that's the one that it's.

: 1634

01:20:54,652 --> 01:20:56,242

being studied for the most right now.

: 1635

01:20:56,242 --> 01:20:57,932

I think also binge eating disorder.

: 1636

01:20:58,342 --> 01:21:01,872

Um, But we are learning that it

has is having beneficial effects

: 1637

01:21:01,882 --> 01:21:03,422

on these eating disorders.

: 1638

01:21:03,422 --> 01:21:07,122

And that has to do with something

that happens with angular gyrus in the

: 1639

01:21:07,132 --> 01:21:10,152

brain and reducing some rigidity there.

: 1640

01:21:10,242 --> 01:21:14,041

And so, um, I do think psilocybin

can help boost your body image.

: 1641

01:21:14,082 --> 01:21:17,622

And then also, um, I mentioned

intimate partner communication.

: 1642

01:21:17,632 --> 01:21:22,052

There's component of psilocybin

that in the brain that we didn't

: 1643

01:21:22,052 --> 01:21:25,082

quite Get to, but, um, I'll

just briefly explain it here.

: 1644

01:21:25,082 --> 01:21:28,272

There's this concept oceanic

boundlessness and another con, which

: 1645

01:21:28,712 --> 01:21:33,032

this like really beautiful, um,

connectivity that you can experience.

: 1646

01:21:33,352 --> 01:21:36,642

And to, to explain that I have to

go back to the default mode another

: 1647

01:21:36,642 --> 01:21:39,892

concept in psilocy, in, in psychedelics.

: 1648

01:21:39,892 --> 01:21:41,132

It's called ego death.

: 1649

01:21:41,182 --> 01:21:42,492

Um, And that scary.

: 1650

01:21:42,502 --> 01:21:45,092

Like, am I going to completely

lose my sense of self?

: 1651

01:21:45,122 --> 01:21:48,472

And that can happen on a, um, heroic dose.

: 1652

01:21:48,482 --> 01:21:50,242

So like you're going over five grams.

: 1653

01:21:50,602 --> 01:21:54,022

But in most macro doses, you're just

going to have really beneficial effects

: 1654

01:21:54,032 --> 01:21:57,992

of this what's called ego death and

what I mean by that So if you remember

: 1655

01:21:58,012 --> 01:22:03,892

default mode network is is involves your

of self and your ego Um, it's almost like

: 1656

01:22:03,892 --> 01:22:09,353

some of that dissolves and um instead

of being so focused on yourself You feel

: 1657

01:22:09,353 --> 01:22:11,858

this connection to the world around you.

: 1658

01:22:11,868 --> 01:22:16,378

It might be that you just feel, um,

some, some connections to the people

: 1659

01:22:16,378 --> 01:22:19,978

that you know and love, or you might

feel really connected to nature.

: 1660

01:22:19,978 --> 01:22:24,008

You might feel connected to the whole

dang universe, whatever it is, but that's

: 1661

01:22:24,008 --> 01:22:26,888

this concept called oceanic boundlessness.

: 1662

01:22:26,898 --> 01:22:30,868

And I experienced something so

profound during my psilocybin journey.

: 1663

01:22:31,178 --> 01:22:33,208

I'm just going to briefly explain

it, but it was definitely an

: 1664

01:22:33,208 --> 01:22:35,288

element of oceanic boundlessness.

: 1665

01:22:35,288 --> 01:22:39,813

I felt like I was connected to Threads of

light to everyone that I know and love.

: 1666

01:22:39,853 --> 01:22:44,668

And I could actually like feel the love

coming towards me and the love that I was

: 1667

01:22:44,678 --> 01:22:49,038

sending back almost like an electrical

current, you know, and you know, I was

: 1668

01:22:49,038 --> 01:22:52,398

only, I was doing just a two gram dose

profound because a lot of times we feel

: 1669

01:22:52,398 --> 01:22:57,008

like we, we know we have a support can,

uh, uh, you know, um, support system

: 1670

01:22:57,018 --> 01:23:00,258

out there, our friends and family, and

we know they love us and will support

: 1671

01:23:00,258 --> 01:23:00,508

us.

: 1672

01:23:01,373 --> 01:23:06,993

physically feel it is so amazing and

profound and so I was experiencing that

: 1673

01:23:06,993 --> 01:23:11,773

it was an element of oceanic boundlessness

and so I firmly believe that psilocybin

: 1674

01:23:11,773 --> 01:23:15,763

can help facilitate that intimate partner

communication and again that doesn't

: 1675

01:23:15,763 --> 01:23:19,318

mean that you have to like you and your

partner are going to like Hang out in

: 1676

01:23:19,327 --> 01:23:21,118

the bedroom and do shrooms and then get

: 1677

01:23:21,118 --> 01:23:21,808

all funky.

: 1678

01:23:21,818 --> 01:23:21,958

Like,

: 1679

01:23:21,968 --> 01:23:22,208

that's

: 1680

01:23:22,208 --> 01:23:23,028

not what I'm saying.

: 1681

01:23:23,648 --> 01:23:27,538

You can go off and do that on your own

and feel that increased connectivity

: 1682

01:23:28,088 --> 01:23:29,638

without your partner doing anything.

: 1683

01:23:29,638 --> 01:23:30,743

I mean, that's exactly to me.

: 1684

01:23:30,843 --> 01:23:35,763

I don't necessarily have like female

sexual dysfunction, but I, um,

: 1685

01:23:35,763 --> 01:23:39,713

I went off and did, you know, my

macro doses on my own with a guide.

: 1686

01:23:39,733 --> 01:23:42,164

And then I came back and my

husband hadn't done anything.

: 1687

01:23:42,164 --> 01:23:43,884

He was like sitting on

the porch the whole time.

: 1688

01:23:43,884 --> 01:23:48,174

I'm sure, you know, I

felt like I loved him.

: 1689

01:23:48,754 --> 01:23:52,943

Like to infinity, you know, it was

just like this exponential increase

: 1690

01:23:52,964 --> 01:23:54,454

in the love that I have for him.

: 1691

01:23:54,764 --> 01:23:57,474

And it wasn't that, like, we were

having marital problems to begin

: 1692

01:23:57,474 --> 01:23:59,614

with, or that I didn't love him, I do.

: 1693

01:23:59,943 --> 01:24:02,964

But it was just this increase, and

I was like, how did this happen?

: 1694

01:24:02,974 --> 01:24:04,844

He didn't do anything different, you know?

: 1695

01:24:05,214 --> 01:24:09,634

So I think that it can be really

profound in that way as well.

: 1696

01:24:10,374 --> 01:24:14,134

And then I wanted to get back to,

we'd already covered talking about

: 1697

01:24:14,164 --> 01:24:16,224

adverse childhood experiences.

: 1698

01:24:16,534 --> 01:24:21,044

So again, one in six adults has had four

or more adverse childhood experiences,

: 1699

01:24:21,054 --> 01:24:25,273

and those adverse childhood experiences

can exacerbate menopause symptoms.

: 1700

01:24:25,273 --> 01:24:26,124

We know this.

: 1701

01:24:26,584 --> 01:24:29,184

And so, especially if

you've had four or more.

: 1702

01:24:29,464 --> 01:24:33,724

And so, now that we're learning that

psilocybin can help with adverse

: 1703

01:24:33,724 --> 01:24:38,809

childhood experiences, help reduce that

psychological response, I think that it

: 1704

01:24:38,839 --> 01:24:44,439

can help with menopause symptoms as well

by reducing that psychological response to

: 1705

01:24:44,439 --> 01:24:46,818

our traumas that we've had in our lives.

: 1706

01:24:46,869 --> 01:24:46,999

So

: 1707

01:24:47,154 --> 01:24:47,794

-: 0720

so powerful.

: 1708

01:24:48,424 --> 01:24:48,964

Yeah.

: 1709

01:24:48,984 --> 01:24:49,724

I love it.

: 1710

01:24:49,784 --> 01:24:50,264

I love it.

: 1711

01:24:50,264 --> 01:24:55,044

And I think, thinking back to to the

rebus that you mentioned, that relaxed

: 1712

01:24:55,044 --> 01:24:59,334

beliefs under psychedelics, I think

that's huge too, when we're talking about.

: 1713

01:24:59,773 --> 01:25:03,054

Our libido and sex life because

I don't know a single woman

: 1714

01:25:03,054 --> 01:25:05,314

who's like super stressed out

and it's like, yeah Let's like

: 1715

01:25:05,574 --> 01:25:09,324

get it on I mean There's probably

a few of us that like maybe that's

: 1716

01:25:09,474 --> 01:25:11,943

our you know release and so we're

maybe more motivated in that

: 1717

01:25:11,943 --> 01:25:13,324

direction when we're super stressed

: 1718

01:25:14,704 --> 01:25:19,014

But I would say that's probably the

minority of women like typically You

: 1719

01:25:19,014 --> 01:25:23,324

know, if we're all up in our head

and stressed out, like that doesn't

: 1720

01:25:23,324 --> 01:25:24,034

feel sexy.

: 1721

01:25:25,514 --> 01:25:25,634

So,

: 1722

01:25:25,669 --> 01:25:27,169

-: 0720

No, it Like, yeah, if you're

: 1723

01:25:27,169 --> 01:25:27,879

super stressed, you're

: 1724

01:25:27,879 --> 01:25:28,079

like,

: 1725

01:25:28,214 --> 01:25:28,854

-: 0720

yeah.

: 1726

01:25:28,854 --> 01:25:32,184

So if I'm in a more of a, you know,

parasympathetic nervous system

: 1727

01:25:32,193 --> 01:25:36,314

state, like it's a lot more likely

that we'll be motivated that way.

: 1728

01:25:36,659 --> 01:25:37,049

-: 0720

yes.

: 1729

01:25:37,894 --> 01:25:40,934

-: 0720

Yeah, Yeah, Well, that's really, really

: 1730

01:25:40,934 --> 01:25:43,075

cool and really encouraging, I think, too.

: 1731

01:25:43,145 --> 01:25:45,718

And, you know, I'm a

big root cause person.

: 1732

01:25:45,718 --> 01:25:48,048

It's not like, we can always

identify, like, one root cause

: 1733

01:25:48,048 --> 01:25:50,418

and that's, you know, if you can

address that, it's the magic bullet.

: 1734

01:25:50,458 --> 01:25:51,588

Everything's fixed.

: 1735

01:25:51,848 --> 01:25:54,157

It's usually so multifactorial, right?

: 1736

01:25:54,258 --> 01:25:55,088

Multifaceted.

: 1737

01:25:55,291 --> 01:25:59,627

Um, but really am excited about

this because I, I believe that And

: 1738

01:25:59,627 --> 01:26:02,517

I think that, you know, in the way

that I said before, it can be a

: 1739

01:26:02,517 --> 01:26:06,317

little more of an enlightening option

versus like a numbing out option.

: 1740

01:26:06,916 --> 01:26:12,651

I think it gives us this opportunity to

start to go in and, you know, address

: 1741

01:26:12,661 --> 01:26:17,621

those adverse childhood experiences

that we've had address whatever.

: 1742

01:26:17,921 --> 01:26:18,491

Maybe there.

: 1743

01:26:19,026 --> 01:26:22,629

limiting beliefs, different things that

are going on that are holding us back.

: 1744

01:26:23,327 --> 01:26:26,797

to me, that's the most exciting aspect

of this is that you could really kind of

: 1745

01:26:26,797 --> 01:26:29,247

dive deeper to subconscious level, right?

: 1746

01:26:29,257 --> 01:26:30,797

Because it's usually

our subconscious mind.

: 1747

01:26:30,797 --> 01:26:36,184

That's the biggest roadblock I find when

it comes to really making the changes

: 1748

01:26:36,184 --> 01:26:40,074

in our lives that we need to make or

taking the steps forward that we need to

: 1749

01:26:40,074 --> 01:26:43,754

make to really bring all of our dreams

and goals into fruition and become like

: 1750

01:26:44,279 --> 01:26:46,599

Absolute best version of ourselves, right?

: 1751

01:26:47,039 --> 01:26:50,179

Fulfill our potential,

which we all want to do.

: 1752

01:26:50,259 --> 01:26:51,349

We all want to do that.

: 1753

01:26:51,359 --> 01:26:54,779

And I think that if we can kind of

remove all the roadblocks that stand in

: 1754

01:26:54,779 --> 01:27:00,489

the way of that, and this is one tool

for doing that, and it just opens up so

: 1755

01:27:00,489 --> 01:27:05,327

many possibilities by helping us kind

of root out like, Oh, what are these

: 1756

01:27:05,358 --> 01:27:07,570

hidden things that are stopping me?

: 1757

01:27:07,799 --> 01:27:11,199

I love the idea too, that you

have to kind of, if you're going

: 1758

01:27:11,199 --> 01:27:12,609

to do this in a macro dose.

: 1759

01:27:13,589 --> 01:27:18,919

Manner, you have to create space for

that space for yourself because it is

: 1760

01:27:19,479 --> 01:27:22,019

like going and getting a treatment and

: 1761

01:27:22,409 --> 01:27:24,629

you're going to feel, you know,

maybe wiped out the next day.

: 1762

01:27:24,629 --> 01:27:30,802

Like, you have to allow your body

and your mind to process this

: 1763

01:27:30,822 --> 01:27:33,087

and then do the integration work.

: 1764

01:27:33,097 --> 01:27:37,297

And that's what I want to talk about next

too, is, um, you mentioned integration.

: 1765

01:27:37,307 --> 01:27:40,767

So, you know, this isn't something

that you're going to take and like

: 1766

01:27:40,907 --> 01:27:42,957

magically everything's going to be.

: 1767

01:27:43,282 --> 01:27:45,022

Fixed for you the next day,

: 1768

01:27:45,032 --> 01:27:45,522

right?

: 1769

01:27:45,522 --> 01:27:49,162

Yeah.

: 1770

01:27:49,842 --> 01:27:52,452

-: 0720

So yes, like all of these things do

: 1771

01:27:52,462 --> 01:27:56,122

happen in your And then, you know,

that can have very beneficial effects.

: 1772

01:27:56,142 --> 01:28:00,332

And there are certainly instances where,

yes, people have used psilocybin and

: 1773

01:28:00,332 --> 01:28:03,912

then they automatically change something

about themselves or learn a new insight.

: 1774

01:28:03,942 --> 01:28:06,392

That's, That's great, but

that's it typically works.

: 1775

01:28:06,392 --> 01:28:06,977

You, okay.

: 1776

01:28:06,977 --> 01:28:09,187

Typically have to put in work yourself.

: 1777

01:28:09,217 --> 01:28:14,827

And so, um, you know, after my macro

dose, I was, you know, sitting there and

: 1778

01:28:14,827 --> 01:28:18,027

journaling and writing just kind of like

rapid fire, writing down any thought I

: 1779

01:28:18,137 --> 01:28:20,407

had about my journey and what did I learn?

: 1780

01:28:20,859 --> 01:28:24,789

Um, and then over time, of course, I was

writing the book and my first chapter.

: 1781

01:28:24,939 --> 01:28:31,568

Um, And so I wrote that

over and over again.

: 1782

01:28:31,568 --> 01:28:33,199

I was really thinking

about these insights.

: 1783

01:28:33,209 --> 01:28:37,045

So I was naturally doing integration

just by writing about my experience.

: 1784

01:28:37,055 --> 01:28:38,135

So that's one way.

: 1785

01:28:38,745 --> 01:28:42,125

But again, there's all these beautiful

communities out there that do, um,

: 1786

01:28:42,135 --> 01:28:45,519

like integration circles and you can

find them on zoom or you can do them in

: 1787

01:28:45,519 --> 01:28:48,849

person in your communities, depending

on where you live and things like that.

: 1788

01:28:48,859 --> 01:28:54,209

But, um, You know, those are really

beneficial to because you are usually

: 1789

01:28:54,209 --> 01:28:57,459

communicating with other people

in the circle who've had similar

: 1790

01:28:57,459 --> 01:29:00,809

experiences, meaning that they've

done some type of psychedelic and

: 1791

01:29:00,809 --> 01:29:05,179

they know some of these concepts like

that feeling of oceanic boundlessness.

: 1792

01:29:05,179 --> 01:29:07,939

Because if you start to explain, try

to explain that to someone who's never.

: 1793

01:29:08,209 --> 01:29:10,898

Felt it or known what

you're talking about.

: 1794

01:29:10,898 --> 01:29:13,749

I'm like, I was connected by threads

of light to everyone I know and love.

: 1795

01:29:13,749 --> 01:29:15,789

They're going to think

I'm crazy and woo, right?

: 1796

01:29:15,844 --> 01:29:16,193

-: 0720

Yes.

: 1797

01:29:17,145 --> 01:29:19,845

-: 0720

And, um, and so, you know, it's really

: 1798

01:29:19,845 --> 01:29:22,825

beneficial to be things with other

people who've done that, or just

: 1799

01:29:22,825 --> 01:29:26,835

are like minded about these things

so that they can, um, help you.

: 1800

01:29:26,835 --> 01:29:30,514

And they can help you learn insights that

maybe didn't, that you didn't recognize.

: 1801

01:29:30,514 --> 01:29:32,188

You just talk about your experience.

: 1802

01:29:32,789 --> 01:29:34,839

Um, and then they help help you with that.

: 1803

01:29:34,839 --> 01:29:35,869

And there's some great communities.

: 1804

01:29:35,869 --> 01:29:38,429

I want to mention there's

moms on mushrooms.

: 1805

01:29:38,449 --> 01:29:39,068

It's M O.

: 1806

01:29:39,068 --> 01:29:39,089

M.

: 1807

01:29:39,239 --> 01:29:41,079

that was created by Tracy T.

: 1808

01:29:41,079 --> 01:29:45,199

And it's really just a community of

moms who are, uh, you know, open about

: 1809

01:29:45,199 --> 01:29:48,599

their mushroom use and they're sharing

resources and talking to each other.

: 1810

01:29:48,599 --> 01:29:50,799

There are educational components to it.

: 1811

01:29:50,799 --> 01:29:52,304

There's integration circles.

: 1812

01:29:52,349 --> 01:29:55,004

She's just doing a really great

job of reducing stigma for

: 1813

01:29:55,284 --> 01:29:57,164

parents who might be community.

: 1814

01:29:57,179 --> 01:29:58,529

You know, using magic mushrooms.

: 1815

01:29:58,919 --> 01:30:02,567

And then also, um, there's the Flourish

Academy, which I think is great

: 1816

01:30:02,637 --> 01:30:07,497

and they are doing, um, different

educational components as well.

: 1817

01:30:07,497 --> 01:30:10,184

Um, also recommend

looking up, April Pride.

: 1818

01:30:10,184 --> 01:30:13,675

she has a couple of different

programs that, um, so she can do

: 1819

01:30:14,035 --> 01:30:17,962

some, some work with people who

are, uh, starting to microdose and

: 1820

01:30:17,962 --> 01:30:19,222

just need to gain their footing.

: 1821

01:30:19,222 --> 01:30:21,622

She has a great microdosing

journal out there.

: 1822

01:30:21,982 --> 01:30:25,791

Um, So there are a lot of people out there

that are in this space that are trying to.

: 1823

01:30:26,317 --> 01:30:27,697

foster this community.

: 1824

01:30:27,916 --> 01:30:29,567

So integration can be done that way.

: 1825

01:30:29,577 --> 01:30:32,759

It can also be done with like

an integration therapist.

: 1826

01:30:32,759 --> 01:30:36,549

So there are there are certainly

psychedelic assistant therapists out there

: 1827

01:30:36,759 --> 01:30:41,239

who help, who, who work with people while

they're actually on the psilocybin, like

: 1828

01:30:41,239 --> 01:30:45,039

they're while you're macro dosing, you're

with a psychiatrist or a psychologist,

: 1829

01:30:45,369 --> 01:30:46,829

they're not interfering with your journey.

: 1830

01:30:46,829 --> 01:30:50,159

They're just there to support you

with you afterwards doing integration.

: 1831

01:30:50,439 --> 01:30:53,996

But there are also therapists out

there that just, And so you don't

: 1832

01:30:54,006 --> 01:30:58,780

necessarily have to do the, the, um,

psilocybin with a, with a psychologist.

: 1833

01:30:58,780 --> 01:31:01,450

You might just work with

the therapist afterwards.

: 1834

01:31:01,890 --> 01:31:05,570

Um, and then, you know, again, you

can do a lot of that integration

: 1835

01:31:05,570 --> 01:31:07,610

yourself again by writing or just.

: 1836

01:31:07,785 --> 01:31:12,365

thinking or meditating and really

like remembering what came up for you.

: 1837

01:31:12,615 --> 01:31:14,975

And the beauty of integration

is that it's ongoing.

: 1838

01:31:14,975 --> 01:31:17,145

It's not like you just

do it for the next day.

: 1839

01:31:17,395 --> 01:31:19,295

It's something that you just keep doing.

: 1840

01:31:19,295 --> 01:31:21,715

Like I think about my

macro doses all the time.

: 1841

01:31:21,715 --> 01:31:22,985

And what did I learn during them?

: 1842

01:31:22,985 --> 01:31:25,075

And I continue to gain new insights.

: 1843

01:31:25,075 --> 01:31:29,705

I continue to make behavior changes

for myself based on those insights.

: 1844

01:31:30,025 --> 01:31:34,066

And you know, I spent a, it's been

a year since my big macro dose.

: 1845

01:31:34,066 --> 01:31:36,991

And so I'm continuing

to learn from that very.

: 1846

01:31:38,071 --> 01:31:41,201

One single experience

and it's, it's beautiful.

: 1847

01:31:41,581 --> 01:31:43,651

But again, um, it's not a magic bullet.

: 1848

01:31:43,651 --> 01:31:45,591

You do have to do that integration work.

: 1849

01:31:45,821 --> 01:31:48,621

And that helps you make some

of those behavior changes.

: 1850

01:31:48,631 --> 01:31:51,541

And of course, you have to take

initiative to make those behavior changes.

: 1851

01:31:51,550 --> 01:31:55,971

So if you're trying to stop the online

shopping, you have to consciously

: 1852

01:31:55,981 --> 01:31:59,221

think about that and consciously

behavior changes, but you're,

: 1853

01:31:59,300 --> 01:32:02,141

you might be in a better place to

make after using full assignment.

: 1854

01:32:02,201 --> 01:32:02,441

-: 0720

Yeah.

: 1855

01:32:02,441 --> 01:32:05,751

And that brings me to one concept

that, you know, we've sort of

: 1856

01:32:05,751 --> 01:32:08,141

touched on indirectly, but that's

: 1857

01:32:08,141 --> 01:32:08,751

motivation.

: 1858

01:32:09,005 --> 01:32:13,005

And how this can shift your motivation,

because like you said, you know, where I

: 1859

01:32:13,005 --> 01:32:15,625

would have been maybe having a glass of

wine or two every night, like now it's

: 1860

01:32:15,625 --> 01:32:17,045

like, maybe I have them once a week.

: 1861

01:32:17,075 --> 01:32:22,045

If that, like, I mean, that's a big

shift in one's or your, just your level

: 1862

01:32:22,045 --> 01:32:24,325

of motivation to make the changes.

: 1863

01:32:24,825 --> 01:32:26,715

and that's something that so

many people struggle with.

: 1864

01:32:26,765 --> 01:32:27,895

I think that there's a lot of.

: 1865

01:32:28,500 --> 01:32:32,090

Uh, Misconceptions what motivation is

that we should always feel motivated

: 1866

01:32:32,090 --> 01:32:35,410

and always feel like, you know, Oh,

you know, once I make these changes,

: 1867

01:32:35,450 --> 01:32:38,212

like I'm always going to feel motivated

to eat healthy and hit the the gym.

: 1868

01:32:38,212 --> 01:32:40,552

And it's like, that's just not reality.

: 1869

01:32:40,662 --> 01:32:45,302

Um, but yeah, dive into that just briefly,

because I know we're, we're getting

: 1870

01:32:45,302 --> 01:32:46,772

short on time, but I think that this is a

: 1871

01:32:46,772 --> 01:32:47,522

really important

: 1872

01:32:47,812 --> 01:32:48,632

piece to touch on.

: 1873

01:32:50,187 --> 01:32:52,057

-: 0720

Yeah, think part of it is that, yeah,

: 1874

01:32:52,057 --> 01:32:56,557

you may not feel motivated to make these

changes all the time, but what what may

: 1875

01:32:56,557 --> 01:33:00,187

be a benefit is I was, so I was mentioning

that psilocybin makes you feel more

: 1876

01:33:00,187 --> 01:33:04,057

okay with your highs and lows rather

than sort of like blunting your mood.

: 1877

01:33:04,457 --> 01:33:08,297

And, um, so I think you end up

feeling more okay with just your.

: 1878

01:33:08,467 --> 01:33:11,137

present life, your present state of mind.

: 1879

01:33:11,547 --> 01:33:14,416

And, of times we're, we're, you

know, constantly ruminating about

: 1880

01:33:14,416 --> 01:33:16,177

the past or the future or whatever.

: 1881

01:33:16,177 --> 01:33:20,587

And, you know, that leads us to want

to numb out in way, whether that's

: 1882

01:33:20,597 --> 01:33:25,032

grabbing wine, um, Adding something

to your online cart or, you know,

: 1883

01:33:25,032 --> 01:33:28,832

whatever it is that is that is

getting, that is a roadblock for you.

: 1884

01:33:29,142 --> 01:33:33,662

Um, but if you okay with just

your everyday existence, that

: 1885

01:33:33,702 --> 01:33:36,382

makes you less to, to numb out.

: 1886

01:33:36,422 --> 01:33:41,077

and and when you're not doing the

numbing out, you, you open up other.

: 1887

01:33:41,277 --> 01:33:41,687

-: 0720

Yeah.

: 1888

01:33:44,322 --> 01:33:45,902

-: 0720

And part of that is like, it gives

: 1889

01:33:45,902 --> 01:33:47,791

you a boost in motivation, you know?

: 1890

01:33:47,791 --> 01:33:51,462

So I'll just, I've, I've gotten into

strength training lately and I love it.

: 1891

01:33:51,462 --> 01:33:54,791

And it's such a beneficial thing in

perimenopause, like build that muscle

: 1892

01:33:54,791 --> 01:33:55,482

because it's really

: 1893

01:33:55,622 --> 01:33:59,562

healthy, but it's, it's not like I'm

can't wait to hit the weights today.

: 1894

01:33:59,602 --> 01:34:00,062

You know?

: 1895

01:34:00,132 --> 01:34:01,692

I don't necessarily have that.

: 1896

01:34:02,112 --> 01:34:05,922

I mean, I I do love exercise to a

certain point, but um, but yeah,

: 1897

01:34:05,922 --> 01:34:06,922

there are days where I'm like, eh,

: 1898

01:34:07,552 --> 01:34:09,032

but, you know, I'm tracking.

: 1899

01:34:09,697 --> 01:34:13,987

tracking my progress, like, Oh, I'm

adding more by I'm adding more weights

: 1900

01:34:13,987 --> 01:34:18,137

to my bicep curls, and I get really

excited to see progress in the mirror.

: 1901

01:34:18,537 --> 01:34:22,577

And loving that it's not necessarily

like I'm trying to like reshape my body,

: 1902

01:34:22,577 --> 01:34:24,737

but I love like seeing the muscle form.

: 1903

01:34:24,777 --> 01:34:29,267

And that can help motivate you to

the more progress that you make with

: 1904

01:34:29,277 --> 01:34:31,597

something that increases your motivation.

: 1905

01:34:31,607 --> 01:34:34,687

And when we're doing less

numbing out, that makes us

: 1906

01:34:34,687 --> 01:34:36,307

more available to access that

: 1907

01:34:36,307 --> 01:34:37,077

motivation.

: 1908

01:34:37,121 --> 01:34:37,422

-: 0720

that.

: 1909

01:34:37,462 --> 01:34:37,702

Yeah.

: 1910

01:34:37,702 --> 01:34:39,022

That's really powerful.

: 1911

01:34:39,092 --> 01:34:40,132

It's so powerful.

: 1912

01:34:40,433 --> 01:34:44,633

Um, because I think, yeah, it,

it kind of is enabling more

: 1913

01:34:44,633 --> 01:34:45,452

consistency

: 1914

01:34:47,188 --> 01:34:47,528

-: 0720

Mm hmm.

: 1915

01:34:48,452 --> 01:34:48,493

-: 0720

gets

: 1916

01:34:48,493 --> 01:34:48,763

results.

: 1917

01:34:49,073 --> 01:34:49,383

I mean,

: 1918

01:34:50,643 --> 01:34:51,543

yeah, it.

: 1919

01:34:51,543 --> 01:34:51,853

Love it.

: 1920

01:34:51,883 --> 01:34:52,463

That's awesome.

: 1921

01:34:52,463 --> 01:34:52,753

That's awesome.

: 1922

01:34:52,753 --> 01:34:54,202

Um, so let's.

: 1923

01:34:54,656 --> 01:34:56,706

You mentioned psychedelic

assisted therapy.

: 1924

01:34:56,736 --> 01:34:58,666

I know that this is not legal everywhere.

: 1925

01:34:58,666 --> 01:35:03,012

So, um, and you know, know you're

not a legal expert, but just give

: 1926

01:35:03,032 --> 01:35:06,812

me, give us a little overview, um,

if people are interested in getting

: 1927

01:35:06,812 --> 01:35:09,972

started in this, like, what do they do?

: 1928

01:35:09,972 --> 01:35:10,212

Where do

: 1929

01:35:10,212 --> 01:35:10,732

they go?

: 1930

01:35:10,742 --> 01:35:11,291

How does it

: 1931

01:35:11,392 --> 01:35:11,832

work?

: 1932

01:35:13,572 --> 01:35:14,402

-: 0720

Yeah, of course.

: 1933

01:35:14,422 --> 01:35:19,022

So federally psilocybin is still illegal

and it's a schedule one substance,

: 1934

01:35:19,041 --> 01:35:23,460

meaning it's like considered up there

with like heroin or whatever it's

: 1935

01:35:23,460 --> 01:35:27,180

considered not to have any medical

benefit, you know, which is so outdated.

: 1936

01:35:27,190 --> 01:35:30,230

And I know that the DEA knows

this and they I'm hoping that

: 1937

01:35:30,240 --> 01:35:31,840

it will eventually get changed.

: 1938

01:35:32,353 --> 01:35:35,501

Likely what we'll see is

that MDMA will get changed.

: 1939

01:35:35,501 --> 01:35:35,508

Right.

: 1940

01:35:35,718 --> 01:35:40,218

Uh, Approved by the FDA for psychedelic

assisted therapy, and I would say sometime

: 1941

01:35:40,218 --> 01:35:44,088

in the near future, like sometime this

year, I would think, and then after

: 1942

01:35:44,088 --> 01:35:47,487

that, like, psilocybin will follow

closely behind, and that's simply because

: 1943

01:35:47,528 --> 01:35:51,628

MDMA, we're further along with clinical

trials related to MDMA than we are with

: 1944

01:35:51,628 --> 01:35:56,293

psilocybin, we're in, there's tons of

clinical trials, and, and Um, phase three

: 1945

01:35:56,293 --> 01:36:00,193

clinical trials in the works with two, but

we're just not as far as we are with MDMA,

: 1946

01:36:00,933 --> 01:36:03,753

but going into where, where is it legal?

: 1947

01:36:03,753 --> 01:36:09,103

So, um, it's legal in certain contexts

in, um, let's see, it would be Colorado.

: 1948

01:36:09,593 --> 01:36:12,343

and in, um, Oregon state.

: 1949

01:36:12,373 --> 01:36:13,803

So those are the two states.

: 1950

01:36:13,909 --> 01:36:16,639

And then we've got a couple of,

we've got a few cities out there.

: 1951

01:36:16,639 --> 01:36:17,199

So D.

: 1952

01:36:17,199 --> 01:36:17,669

C.

: 1953

01:36:17,669 --> 01:36:20,612

there's, um, so there's

decriminalization in D.

: 1954

01:36:20,612 --> 01:36:25,333

C., um, Which like police generally

aren't prosecuting anyone with

: 1955

01:36:25,333 --> 01:36:28,553

like a personal amount on them

or, you know, personal usage.

: 1956

01:36:28,615 --> 01:36:30,014

If you were like growing, mass

: 1957

01:36:30,014 --> 01:36:31,295

producing, but it

: 1958

01:36:31,295 --> 01:36:31,895

might be a Different

: 1959

01:36:31,895 --> 01:36:32,264

story.

: 1960

01:36:32,264 --> 01:36:32,335

but,

: 1961

01:36:32,945 --> 01:36:33,785

um, yeah.

: 1962

01:36:34,580 --> 01:36:37,400

copious amounts of shrooms

in your dank closet.

: 1963

01:36:37,440 --> 01:36:37,590

-: 0720

that.

: 1964

01:36:38,880 --> 01:36:39,120

Yeah.

: 1965

01:36:39,210 --> 01:36:41,760

-: 0720

But um, and then there's legalization,

: 1966

01:36:41,800 --> 01:36:45,460

or there's certain elements of

legalization and in Ann Arbor, Michigan.

: 1967

01:36:45,770 --> 01:36:48,790

And then lots of states actually

have legislation in the works.

: 1968

01:36:48,800 --> 01:36:52,520

There, you know, we're going to see

it follow a similar pattern like

: 1969

01:36:52,520 --> 01:36:55,719

we did with cannabis, where we've

had a few states that legalized

: 1970

01:36:55,719 --> 01:36:57,590

it in certain contexts and now.

: 1971

01:36:57,934 --> 01:37:01,469

Almost, uh, like most of, over

half of states have some type

: 1972

01:37:01,469 --> 01:37:02,889

of legalization for cannabis.

: 1973

01:37:02,889 --> 01:37:06,930

It's even more than that, but, um, Uh,

but so we're going to see a pattern

: 1974

01:37:06,940 --> 01:37:11,210

like that happen and then eventually

hopefully psilocybin will be descheduled

: 1975

01:37:11,230 --> 01:37:13,660

is what, what I'm, what I'm hoping to see.

: 1976

01:37:13,753 --> 01:37:17,428

But in terms of like, okay, what if you

don't live in one of these states, does

: 1977

01:37:17,428 --> 01:37:19,398

that mean it's totally off limits to you?

: 1978

01:37:19,788 --> 01:37:23,553

Um, Well, want to encourage you to

break any laws, so but you do you,

: 1979

01:37:24,563 --> 01:37:26,733

and so I, you know, I will tell you.

: 1980

01:37:27,428 --> 01:37:28,978

Well, no, yeah, I want you to be safe.

: 1981

01:37:28,978 --> 01:37:30,407

I don't want you to go

to jail for anything.

: 1982

01:37:30,448 --> 01:37:34,508

Um, But you know, there are under, I

will tell you are underground guides

: 1983

01:37:34,508 --> 01:37:38,848

out there that will help you, they will

meet you where you need to go to do, um,

: 1984

01:37:38,878 --> 01:37:41,458

a civil assignment journey, if that's

something that you're looking to do.

: 1985

01:37:41,498 --> 01:37:46,183

I myself hired an underground

guide and, um, and he was fabulous.

: 1986

01:37:46,202 --> 01:37:48,003

And I, I give his name in the book.

: 1987

01:37:48,013 --> 01:37:48,853

He was amazing.

: 1988

01:37:48,853 --> 01:37:52,573

I trusted him fully and,

And felt very safe with him.

: 1989

01:37:52,583 --> 01:37:55,683

Um, he also brought his mom

with him, which was really cool.

: 1990

01:37:56,173 --> 01:37:59,393

She, she was my trip setter and he

was the guide and it was really great.

: 1991

01:37:59,675 --> 01:38:01,425

Um, but I write about

that fully in the books.

: 1992

01:38:01,425 --> 01:38:05,025

I won't dive into it too much, but,

um, but yeah, there are options.

: 1993

01:38:05,045 --> 01:38:10,425

Plus there are other countries that

um, decriminalization or some form

: 1994

01:38:10,425 --> 01:38:12,855

of legalization that do retreats.

: 1995

01:38:12,895 --> 01:38:15,945

Um, I will caution people that if

you are going on any retreat or

: 1996

01:38:15,945 --> 01:38:19,295

working with an underground guide

or even an above ground therapist.

: 1997

01:38:19,457 --> 01:38:22,097

To do your research on person is there.

: 1998

01:38:22,137 --> 01:38:25,627

Um, and, and then, you know,

like reviews, um, stuff.

: 1999

01:38:25,897 --> 01:38:29,647

You're like, do you want to raise the

issue that there are there are problems

: 2000

01:38:29,647 --> 01:38:34,246

with, um, with sexual assault in the

psychedelic industry, just as they are.

: 2001

01:38:34,257 --> 01:38:37,416

There are problems with sexual

assault in every industry.

: 2002

01:38:37,416 --> 01:38:37,857

Right.

: 2003

01:38:38,257 --> 01:38:41,537

So it's not a surprise that it happens

in the psychedelic industry too.

: 2004

01:38:41,567 --> 01:38:44,907

And if anyone wants to know more

about that, I do write about that

: 2005

01:38:44,937 --> 01:38:48,347

extensively in the book, but there's

also a great podcast out there.

: 2006

01:38:48,627 --> 01:38:51,007

It's called cover story power trip.

: 2007

01:38:51,047 --> 01:38:55,666

And this was put out by New York magazine

and one of the producers and hosts.

: 2008

01:38:55,687 --> 01:38:56,657

of the podcast.

: 2009

01:38:56,657 --> 01:38:57,337

Her name is Dr.

: 2010

01:38:57,337 --> 01:38:57,837

Lily K.

: 2011

01:38:57,837 --> 01:39:00,677

Ross, and she talks about her own

sexual assault in the psychedelic

: 2012

01:39:00,887 --> 01:39:04,217

industry, and she interviews other

people that this has happened to.

: 2013

01:39:04,217 --> 01:39:08,916

And I don't say this to scare people, but

it is like any other industry, and then

: 2014

01:39:08,967 --> 01:39:13,207

where sexual assault happens, plus when

you are on a psychedelic, because of

: 2015

01:39:13,227 --> 01:39:18,382

that Rebus situation, You're extremely

vulnerable and open to suggestibility.

: 2016

01:39:18,402 --> 01:39:21,121

So you with people who honor consent.

: 2017

01:39:21,392 --> 01:39:25,712

And again, I dive extensively into

how do you, how do you honor that?

: 2018

01:39:25,892 --> 01:39:29,102

How is that consent navigated or

how should it be navigated and

: 2019

01:39:29,102 --> 01:39:30,532

what red flags to watch out for?

: 2020

01:39:30,532 --> 01:39:30,742

There's a

: 2021

01:39:30,742 --> 01:39:30,912

whole

: 2022

01:39:31,172 --> 01:39:32,012

-: 0720

Okay, great.

: 2023

01:39:32,222 --> 01:39:34,352

And that leads me to my, my last question.

: 2024

01:39:34,882 --> 01:39:37,182

and the safety of the

actual substance itself.

: 2025

01:39:37,212 --> 01:39:39,434

And, you know, growing

conditions, et cetera.

: 2026

01:39:39,434 --> 01:39:43,753

I mean, I know any kind of mushroom

can uptake all kinds of things like

: 2027

01:39:43,753 --> 01:39:45,663

metals and, and such from the soil.

: 2028

01:39:45,683 --> 01:39:51,616

So, um, as far as people acquiring the

actual, you know, psilocybin itself, what

: 2029

01:39:51,646 --> 01:39:51,996

uh,

: 2030

01:39:52,709 --> 01:39:53,648

-: 0720

yeah, definitely some,

: 2031

01:39:53,679 --> 01:39:55,209

some good considerations.

: 2032

01:39:55,219 --> 01:39:59,811

So there, um, there are, uh, testing

kits that you can buy through, um,

: 2033

01:39:59,851 --> 01:40:01,861

an organization called dance safe.

: 2034

01:40:01,975 --> 01:40:05,025

So I would recommend testing because

you want to make sure that, like,

: 2035

01:40:05,025 --> 01:40:08,705

if you're ordering, um, you know,

psilocybin mushroom capsules,

: 2036

01:40:08,725 --> 01:40:11,289

because a lot of people grind up the

mushroom, and put it in a capsule.

: 2037

01:40:11,289 --> 01:40:13,179

You want to make sure you're not

getting something that you don't want,

: 2038

01:40:13,189 --> 01:40:14,689

like fentanyl or something like that.

: 2039

01:40:15,139 --> 01:40:18,609

Um, you know, I I, I don't know

if that's really occurred, but

: 2040

01:40:18,609 --> 01:40:19,919

you just want to test everything.

: 2041

01:40:19,929 --> 01:40:21,989

Like DanceSafe is this great organization.

: 2042

01:40:21,989 --> 01:40:26,452

They recommend testing all, any substance

that you take like Um, in terms of

: 2043

01:40:26,452 --> 01:40:28,343

like metals and things like that.

: 2044

01:40:28,343 --> 01:40:32,263

So, you know, certainly, um,

That is a concern just as it

: 2045

01:40:32,263 --> 01:40:33,813

is in the cannabis industry.

: 2046

01:40:33,823 --> 01:40:38,013

What I love about the cannabis industry

is that, um, you know, if I'm looking

: 2047

01:40:38,013 --> 01:40:41,043

at a product online at a dispense,

you know, that I'm going to go and

: 2048

01:40:41,043 --> 01:40:44,633

get at a dispensary or something,

the certificate of analysis and see

: 2049

01:40:44,633 --> 01:40:48,193

what the heavy metals are, what, you

know, the levels are of each, um,

: 2050

01:40:48,253 --> 01:40:50,263

cannabinoid that's in the cannabis.

: 2051

01:40:50,273 --> 01:40:51,143

I can learn that.

: 2052

01:40:51,173 --> 01:40:53,862

I hope that we get to a point

where we have some of those

: 2053

01:40:53,862 --> 01:40:55,303

certificate of analysis.

: 2054

01:40:55,653 --> 01:41:02,566

For, um, for mushrooms as well, because

that will help increase safety, but that

: 2055

01:41:02,576 --> 01:41:07,866

all comes with legalization because, you

know, who's, who's encouraging the random

: 2056

01:41:07,866 --> 01:41:12,791

guy growing mushrooms in his closet to put

out a third party lab test, you know, on a

: 2057

01:41:12,791 --> 01:41:14,462

certificate of analysis, right?

: 2058

01:41:15,392 --> 01:41:20,452

So So yes, you do have to be careful about

what you're getting and where you will

: 2059

01:41:20,452 --> 01:41:25,405

find that like if in places where we've

got legalization and they are being the

: 2060

01:41:25,415 --> 01:41:28,684

that's being sold at dispensaries, you

can you can sometimes get that certificate

: 2061

01:41:28,684 --> 01:41:33,105

of analysis already, but it's just

more so in places where we don't have

: 2062

01:41:33,135 --> 01:41:36,860

legalization or decriminalization where

you're not going necessarily find that.

: 2063

01:41:37,380 --> 01:41:41,434

But yeah, is what I recommend for now

in terms of like just Just buying a test

: 2064

01:41:41,434 --> 01:41:46,965

kit, testing everything that you, taking,

whether that is MDMA, um, LSD, cannabis,

: 2065

01:41:46,975 --> 01:41:47,275

whatever

: 2066

01:41:47,355 --> 01:41:47,865

-: 0720

Awesome.

: 2067

01:41:47,934 --> 01:41:51,135

And we'll put those resources in

the show notes for you guys too.

: 2068

01:41:51,145 --> 01:41:52,843

So, Will link to all of that.

: 2069

01:41:53,053 --> 01:41:56,053

So tell us where can people find you?

: 2070

01:41:56,053 --> 01:41:57,643

Where can they get your book?

: 2071

01:41:57,803 --> 01:41:58,633

-: 0720

The book is available

: 2072

01:41:58,633 --> 01:41:59,713

anywhere books are sold.

: 2073

01:41:59,823 --> 01:42:02,793

I always encourage people to support

their local independent bookstore.

: 2074

01:42:02,793 --> 01:42:06,593

That's my favorite, but you can, you

know, buy wherever you get your books.

: 2075

01:42:06,933 --> 01:42:10,293

And then, um, you can find me

on, uh, I'm on, you know, all

: 2076

01:42:10,293 --> 01:42:11,483

the social media channels.

: 2077

01:42:11,523 --> 01:42:12,983

I'm at Jen Chesick.

: 2078

01:42:12,983 --> 01:42:15,448

So that's the at symbol and then J E N.

: 2079

01:42:15,643 --> 01:42:17,893

C H E S A K.

: 2080

01:42:18,143 --> 01:42:22,343

happy to have you follow me and uh, say

hi and feel free to DM me if you have

: 2081

01:42:22,343 --> 01:42:25,253

questions after, you know, if you've

read the book and you've got questions

: 2082

01:42:25,273 --> 01:42:28,112

or you've heard the podcast and you've

got questions, I'm always happy to

: 2083

01:42:28,112 --> 01:42:30,663

answer DMs as best as I, that I can.

: 2084

01:42:30,673 --> 01:42:33,153

I can't necessarily give medical

advice, but I can, you know,

: 2085

01:42:34,452 --> 01:42:34,763

point you

: 2086

01:42:34,763 --> 01:42:35,032

towards

: 2087

01:42:35,032 --> 01:42:35,653

resources.

: 2088

01:42:36,118 --> 01:42:37,327

-: 0720

I love it and i'll put all of that

: 2089

01:42:37,327 --> 01:42:40,718

in the show notes for you as well so

you can find jen Thank you so much.

: 2090

01:42:40,718 --> 01:42:44,487

This has been really fascinating and

super fun And I so appreciate you taking

: 2091

01:42:44,487 --> 01:42:50,318

the time to come and talk to us about

this um, and yeah, I excited to continue

: 2092

01:42:50,318 --> 01:42:55,088

reading your book because it's just like

more interesting to me than any novel.

: 2093

01:42:57,308 --> 01:42:57,968

I love it.

: 2094

01:42:58,258 --> 01:42:59,428

I love And I really appreciate your

: 2095

01:42:59,428 --> 01:42:59,758

work.

: 2096

01:42:59,758 --> 01:43:00,188

So

: 2097

01:43:00,418 --> 01:43:01,487

-: 0720

Thank you so much.

: 2098

01:43:01,487 --> 01:43:01,868

That is So

: 2099

01:43:01,868 --> 01:43:02,308

sweet.

: 2100

01:43:02,378 --> 01:43:03,308

-: 0720

have to have you back one of these

: 2101

01:43:03,308 --> 01:43:04,728

days and we'll we'll do like a

: 2102

01:43:04,728 --> 01:43:05,248

deeper dive

: 2103

01:43:05,248 --> 01:43:06,218

on one of these smaller

: 2104

01:43:06,268 --> 01:43:06,657

-: 0720

Thank you.

: 2105

01:43:06,657 --> 01:43:07,018

I thank you.

: 2106

01:43:07,018 --> 01:43:07,588

for having me

: 2107

01:43:07,657 --> 01:43:08,157

-: 0720

topics.

: 2108

01:43:08,448 --> 01:43:08,808

-: 0720

Yeah,

: 2109

01:43:08,808 --> 01:43:09,668

I would love to.

: 2110

01:43:09,855 --> 01:43:10,195

We could do

: 2111

01:43:10,195 --> 01:43:11,585

like a whole thing on Menopause

: 2112

01:43:12,875 --> 01:43:15,905

Menopause nutrition and

muscle building and all that.

: 2113

01:43:16,264 --> 01:43:16,844

-: 0720

Yes.

: 2114

01:43:16,885 --> 01:43:17,285

Yes.

: 2115

01:43:17,525 --> 01:43:17,875

I love

: 2116

01:43:17,945 --> 01:43:18,415

-: 0720

all right.

: 2117

01:43:18,945 --> 01:43:19,475

-: 0720

All right.

: 2118

01:43:21,148 --> 01:43:21,735

Thanks Jen.

: 2119

01:43:21,745 --> 01:43:23,025

Thanks for joining us, everybody.

: 2120

01:43:23,045 --> 01:43:23,865

And we'll see you next time.